Vibe Coding: The Future Of AI-Assisted Development Teams

[00:00:00] Aaron Grando: Hello and welcome to the Leader Generation Podcast, brought to you by Mod Op. I am Aaron Grando, VP of Creative Innovation here at Mod Op, and today I am joined by two great guests, uh, Fabio Fiss from Miami. He is on our DX team. He leads the DX team, uh, from a technology standpoint, and Joe DiGiovanna from our innovation team VP of technology on the innovation team. Um, I work really closely with both Fabio and Joe working on stuff for the innovation team, and I’m really excited to talk to them today about vibe coding. It seems like you can’t really go anywhere online these days without tripping over somebody talking about vibe coding.

[00:00:46] Aaron Grando: So I’m excited to hop into the topic with both of these guys who I know have, uh, some real world experience, um, getting into it. But before we hop into that, I did wanna just like set the stage, you know, what is vibe coating and where does it come from and, um, where the term originates. I’ll, I’ll start there.

[00:01:08] Aaron Grando: There was a viral tweet. As many things these days start out with, um, back in February, which feels like a lifetime ago, honestly. From, um, Andrej Karpathy, who was an OpenAI founder. He was a, um, like an AI leader at Tesla for a while, um, all around, very smart AI guy. Um, and he said in a tweet, there’s a new kind of coding I call vibe coding, where you fully give into the vibes, ex embrace exponentials and forget that code even exists.

[00:01:36] Aaron Grando: And he goes on. I asked for the dumbest things, like decrease the padding on the sidebar by half because I’m too lazy to go find it. I accept all, always, I don’t read the diffs anymore, and when I get air messages, I just copy and paste them in with no comment. Usually that fixes it. So, um, that’s obviously a very, very permissive, um, definition of vibe coding and I think honestly, the definition has changed a bit in the time since you posted that tweet.

[00:02:04] Aaron Grando: Um, so I’ll, I’ll start with Joe. What does vibe coding mean to you?

[00:02:10] Joe DiGiovanna: You know, I, I’m not that laid back about vibe coding, but for the most part, I, I do agree. It definitely lets you have a different experience when you’re in there. Um, I feel like it lets you, you know, focus on areas like rapid prototyping and areas where you don’t have a ton of deep expertise.

[00:02:26] Joe DiGiovanna: It lets you skip repetitive boiler, uh, boilerplate tasks and focus more on design and the critical components. Actually, one of the more interesting things that we’ve been able to see over the past few years is how much the iterations of models have improved the quality of the output we’re seeing. And I feel like that for me has expanded its use cases a fair amount.

[00:02:43] Aaron Grando: Yeah. I especially felt that the change from, um, the older generation of the Claude models to the newest Claude models on it, three seven was a huge jump in my, my Vibe coding toolkit. Um, and you know, speaking of that toolkit, what we’re talking about here is coding, using like. AI assisted, um, IDE, so stuff like Cursor, um, and apps that have been, uh, deployed over the course of the past year, especially like Vo from Vercel, Lovable Bolt.

[00:03:13] Aaron Grando: Um, Claude Code is another kind of application I. But basically all of these do what, what they do is they read your code base and they wrap their, um, you know, their context windows around what you’re working on, and then you can prompt them and it generates the code for you. And from that point, you know, each kind of has their own ins and out of how their interface works.

[00:03:32] Aaron Grando: Um, but the, you know, the general pattern is it suggests some edits. Uh, to code that you’re working in an actual working files, and then you can accept or, you know, reject those changes. You can do the, the QA yourself. You can kind of just like let it go and do a whole bunch of changes. You can ask for small changes.

[00:03:50] Aaron Grando: Um, it’s a new kind of strategy that we’re, you know, thinking about and, and how we make it work, um, as you’re, um, you know, directing the, um, AI to do these tasks and Fabio in some offscreen conversations that we had before this call. You kind of described it as conducting an orchestra. Do you, can you elaborate there?

[00:04:09] Fabio Fiss: Yeah, so I think the, the way that I see it is that you’re using these, uh, chat enabled tools. Um, you can do some of that on ChatGPT directly, or even Gemini and other, uh, models directly. You don’t even need, necessarily just the IDEs, right? Or the, the code editors. Uh, but where I see it is that the developer, or even now other people, they’re not just developers or coders.

[00:04:32] Fabio Fiss: They can actually just. Uh, conduct the direction of where the code should go, and then the AI is building or creating that code for you. So if we’re moving on from a scenario where a developer might be writing every single line of code to a conductor, uh, giving the direction, the rhythm, the structures, and then you know, the ai, just creating some of that code for you or all of it.

[00:04:58] Fabio Fiss: Um, to Joe’s point, I think. It really enables things that we haven’t seen before, especially for, uh, prototyping and just a starter of, of that code generation. Um, so it’s really powerful and it’s empowering more people, I think, to do code that they couldn’t do before.

[00:05:16] Aaron Grando: Yeah. This is, I mean, this is one of the most exciting things to me, like as leaders on technology teams and digital shops.

[00:05:24] Aaron Grando: Seeing the way that this is potentially transforming our capabilities and our deliverables is, is really, really interesting. Um, you know, from my perspective, the speed to market equation is the first thing that comes to mind. You know, I have an idea. Taking it from an initial prototype to an actual functional prototype, um, is faster than it’s ever been before.

[00:05:45] Aaron Grando: And, you know, in a low stakes application, like a prototype. It, um, it does a really, really good surfaceable job when you’re not worrying about, you know, all of the super in-depth security, all the external connections. Um, when we’re working in like that kind of, uh, workflow, you know, what are some of those limitations, because I think it’s tempting to think that.

[00:06:08] Aaron Grando: Wow. We can code anything now, uh, with the click of a button or the, you know, the, the wording of a sentence into a prompt. Um, but there are, there are some real limitations. Joe, do you wanna speak maybe to like, some of the limitations that, that we’ve found as we’ve been experimenting with, uh, you know, coding applications?

[00:06:26] Joe DiGiovanna: Sure. Uh, so. I think for me, the thing that I’ve found it having the most issues in is when you get to a really domain specific context or like nuanced business logic or anything like that, or any anywhere that like a detailed architectural understanding is needed. So, um, some of our projects where, especially when we get like the learning management system stuff where you get larger scale applications, I’ve seen it struggle with that.

[00:06:48] Joe DiGiovanna: And so some of the, for instance, some of the developers I’ve been working with on there. Have come to me with questions about generated code in some cases, and it just doesn’t make a lot of sense. And that, you know, is for me, one example of one of the limitations there. Uh, the other limitation I’ve seen is just, uh, lack of clarity for junior developers, especially when it becomes, uh, is like about, uh, debugging or maintenance.

[00:07:09] Joe DiGiovanna: So they can kind of let it get a little outta hand if they’re not careful.

[00:07:13] Aaron Grando: Yeah, I think the, the question of junior developers I do want to come back to a little bit later. Um, so let’s put that one in our back pocket. But I, I do wanna dive a little bit deeper on the developer experience of actually using these tools because, you know, it’s not just the developer experience to Fabio’s point.

[00:07:29] Aaron Grando: We have folks that are outside of, you know, traditional engineering backgrounds, starting to pick up, uh, these coding tools. Um, and what. Makes it, you know, is it still coding? If you are really just prompting the assistant, um, what’s your, what’s your take on that, Fabio?

[00:07:49] Fabio Fiss: Yeah, I think you’re still coding. Um, if you, if you know exactly what’s going on, right to Joe’s point, like you have to have some initial background to understand.

[00:07:58] Fabio Fiss: What is doing for you to be able to then make changes and modify things through prompting. Uh, but the, the cool thing is that if you give into that vibe and you don’t, you kind of let go. It can actually do great things for you, right? So, uh, it can be frustrating initially for a developer, um, to not get the result that they’re looking for.

[00:08:20] Fabio Fiss: And one of the things that often happens is that. Every time that you prompt, you’re gonna get a different result. Right? So you really have to feel comfortable with the fact that you’re not fully in the control, but you can still like, through small iterations, small changes, you can get to do what you want.

[00:08:38] Fabio Fiss: Right? So we’ve seen, I. A lot of great examples with our developers where they can actually optimize a function, optimize a piece of code. They can see a context of a file that they couldn’t really understand fully because it’s not their main expertise. For example, if, uh, a developer is working more in the, uh, application lever level and they need to do some high, like just really quick styling for the application.

[00:09:03] Fabio Fiss: They can do that styling to, to the point that you started with just, you know, change the padding here and there and they can make some modifications very, very quickly like that. So it does bring efficiency, but you have to understand kind of the motion of it.

[00:09:16] Joe DiGiovanna: And one thing I wanna add is, uh, one of the things I’ve been most impressed with is its ability to, to bridge knowledge gaps.

[00:09:21] Joe DiGiovanna: So even if you don’t necessarily know the language you’re looking at, if you know other languages in the core concepts, it’s ability to go ahead and, and translate to that for you and you still understand it adequately is impressive.

[00:09:34] Aaron Grando: I will say, like from my own personal experience, we picked up a Cursor about midyear last year and used it to execute on Mod Heat, which is a one of our products.

[00:09:44] Aaron Grando: We’ve talked a little bit about it. Um, and um, we built that in a framework that I was completely unfamiliar with. And, um, I did a lot of learning through the process of working with, uh, Cursor, specifically kind of vibe coding it out. Um, but it did allow me to kind of bring myself along the process of working through a new technology and a new stack that I was unfamiliar with, taking my, you know, core technology fundamentals and applying them to, you know, a slightly different domain when it comes to, you know, the, the development frameworks that we had chosen to use for that project.

[00:10:20] Aaron Grando: Um, so I think that’s a huge, a huge boost that we get out of, um, you know, vibe coding and these coding APIs in general. Um, but I think it also speaks to that like element of keeping, um, engineers in the loop, um, as you’re working on things. Um, I have had plenty of experiences where I let it run and it goes off the rails, like way off the rails.

[00:10:42] Aaron Grando: We’ve all seen it. Um, sometimes it’ll do it unintentionally if you kind of just let it go. Um, and it can lead to some pretty fun results. Um, but ultimately, you know, I’m here, we’re here at the, um, at the end of this accepting, rejecting the changes, testing them out. Um, the other thing that I’ve thought, uh, is, you know, pretty interesting when it comes to the dev experience is how it’s affecting the rest of the infrastructure that we build around our devs to help them take care of projects.

[00:11:09] Aaron Grando: So, you know, obviously there’s things like, uh, JIRA tickets and, you know, the way that we break down. Tasks and assignments I’ve started, um, you know, just from a product standpoint myself, thinking about things in, you know, kind of the atomic unit terms of will this be, uh, a request that the AI is able to wrap its mind around, uh, and starting to think about my, uh, requirements in those terms as opposed to, um, you know, bigger ticket items.

[00:11:38] Aaron Grando: Um, which I think has just been an overall. Benefit to the way that I think about things from a clarity perspective in addition to just, um, you know, helping the AI get itch job done. It’s, it’s helping us get a little bit more organized, which has been pretty great.

[00:11:54] Joe DiGiovanna: Oh, I a hundred percent. Like there’s been a number of times where I’ve been writing out a prompt and then I realized halfway through writing it that maybe, maybe this feature would be a little better if we did X, Y, or Z.

[00:12:03] Joe DiGiovanna: And so, you know, add that in there as part of the process.

[00:12:05] Aaron Grando: Yeah, for sure. So in terms of, uh, you know, real world examples, I just mentioned us using it to ship Mod Heat, we shifted pretty quickly using some coding assistance. Um, Fabio, where are some things on the DX team that you’ve seen? Um, these tools really kind of fall into practice, um, starting now.

[00:12:24] Aaron Grando: I know we’re like in the process of getting adoption across the entire team right now, but where are you starting to see, uh, you know, process and usage using these tools?

[00:12:34] Fabio Fiss: I have many developers in our team that are always bringing these, uh, stories, uh, on a kind of weekly basis of how, uh, they were able to achieve something that they couldn’t do before.

[00:12:45] Fabio Fiss: So I think one area that we’re seeing a lot of, uh, benefit is, um, doing things in, in. A function that you couldn’t understand before, right? So you can actually optimize a piece of code without knowing too much about it. Uh, we’re also getting cases where. You can refactor something completely, um, in, in, in a way that it wouldn’t, uh, work before.

[00:13:12] Fabio Fiss: Now it does work, right? So we’ve had cases where we had old stacks, for example, of our, uh, server, and we had to modernize. A piece of code to make it work with a more modern stack so a developer doesn’t have to fully understand all the intricacies of that language or of the plugin in case that we’re trying to use to make it work so they can actually.

[00:13:36] Fabio Fiss: Modernize it without knowing everything that that’s going on under the hood there. Um, I think there are examples, um, that are very good with documentation of our code, um, which is something that most developers always struggle with, where they, um, they know what they’re doing, but they struggle with documenting what they are doing for other developers to catch, uh, the, the change later.

[00:14:00] Fabio Fiss: Right? So I think that’s an area where, um. We’re enhancing our, our, uh, capabilities in, in just regular code documentation and documentation outside of our code practice as well, right? We’re enhancing our documentation through these AI tools. Uh, and finally, I think one other area that I see a lot of benefit is to.

[00:14:23] Fabio Fiss: Do more of the styling changes that I mentioned before because not just for websites, but we’re seeing also people trying things for email newsletters to automate process, uh, things that, you know, you just need some basic HTML or CSS, um, and you know, the task can be pretty tedious to do if you’re doing it manually.

[00:14:43] Fabio Fiss: If you just go and use these tools to automate it, it makes it way more efficient and fast to, to achieve.

[00:14:49] Aaron Grando: So Fabio working with the DX team, you’ve seen these tools used for, um, projects that are kind of up and down the, the scale of projects that are worked on, on a dev team. Everything from legacy projects into, you know, newer prototypes, sorts of work. How are you seeing members of the team take these tools and take advantage of having them?

[00:15:10] Fabio Fiss: So there are a few examples. Uh, we, you know, I have stories of developers coming up to me with new practices every week on, and things that they’ve been discovering. So, uh, some areas that I can tell you that it’s been really useful is to, uh, create those prototypes like we’ve mentioned a couple times, uh, start just these baseline projects with different languages, right?

[00:15:31] Fabio Fiss: That’s one of the. Best, uh, capabilities is that you just tell what language you wanna start, either React or PHP or whichever language you’re working on, and it can just start that project for you. Um, the other area that I see a lot of benefit is in, uh, bug fixing. So we, we get a lot of code optimization across the board.

[00:15:51] Fabio Fiss: You know, we’ve had examples even where developers drop an entire zip file and it just. They can ask, uh, through the IDE or directly on chat, uh, to just, you know, run through the code and find maybe. Problems or issues that can be resolved and the tool is very capable in finding and, you know, just highlighting those things for developers.

[00:16:14] Fabio Fiss: Um, and then lastly, I think one area that we’ve seen a lot of benefit is in the styling side, especially for developers, there are taking care of that code for, um, more the backend side of things or the CMS. Uh, the content management system. So they sometimes can, uh, be much more efficient and and faster with just doing high level styling or just changing things really quickly by prompting and, and making those changes go through.

[00:16:42] Fabio Fiss: So there’s many, many other examples that I could go over, but those are just some of the few highlights.

[00:16:47] Aaron Grando: That speaks to, I think, the real variability in where all of these can be applied and. Uh, you know, one of the things that I have found personally as I’m using it, I’m using it for stuff even outside of like code context. I’m using it to take notes and to iterate on my notes, um, to plan, uh, projects, um, you know, writing PRDs, stuff like that.

[00:17:10] Aaron Grando: So, um, I’m always excited to hear when somebody’s like found a, a new use for some of these tools. Um, Joe, um, you know, thinking back to when we were working on Mod Heat. What were some of the things that stuck out to you then when we picked up these tools and we started using them And, and how were some ways that you were taking advantage of it then?

[00:17:30] Aaron Grando: And maybe, you know, how have you evolved your process over the course past few months, uh, as these tools and your skills using them have changed?

[00:17:38] Joe DiGiovanna: Yeah, so, uh, on Mod Heat in particular, uh, when I was first starting that application, it’d been quite a while, like probably three or four years since I’ve really touched TypeScript.

[00:17:47] Joe DiGiovanna: So being able to jump back into that more quickly was, was really useful. A great time saver and got me up to date on, you know, ES six and everything. Um, as far as like initially initiating the application though, uh, the big things for me were the entity schemas and the crud APIs. So all that core stuff, you know, that, that you gotta get out of the way.

[00:18:05] Joe DiGiovanna: That was a huge time saver there. Um, on the, uh, authentication front, you know, all the core stuff like login authentication and sessions, that kind of stuff. It, it all helped out with tremendously. And then, like you mentioned before, the debugging portion was definitely accelerated ’cause it was able to do a deeper analysis on that and really it wasn’t able to get everything, but it was able to push me in the right direction to be able to solve it in a lot of cases.

[00:18:28] Fabio Fiss: You mentioned the notes. Um, we have seen a lot of usage for documentation as well. Uh, both documentation in the code level, plus documentation outside, through chat tools that we can enhance. It’s a, uh, uh, hard part for a developer to make sure that they’re always documenting their code, but these tools really help in that level.

[00:18:50] Aaron Grando: I think it, it definitely speaks to, um, you know, some, sometimes our time, we think about our time valued in the number of hours we spend on things. And it, it leads to us thinking a little bit about, you know, how that might be changing. How the, the value equation of time spent on something is maybe not entirely lined up with the level of effort now, or the, um, you know, the level of expertise that does need to go into a solution.

[00:19:17] Aaron Grando: Um, because there is, uh, you know, there are instances where these tools maybe go down the wrong road. Um, maybe, um, in some cases you can find yourself, um, iterating endlessly on loops that that don’t work, so it’s not one-to-one. Um, I think it’s probably tempting for folks that may be listening to think that this is a silver bullet type of solution, but, uh, the three engineers on this call are here to assure you that it is not a silver bullet.

[00:19:48] Aaron Grando: Um, but uh, yeah, I think that the, the overall outcome and the, the, the change in the way that these tools have worked over the course of the past six months is pointing more towards, I. Uh, quality generations on the first iteration. Um, but you know, by virtue of the way that these systems are built, that’s never going to be a guarantee.

[00:20:10] Aaron Grando: And having somebody in the loop, um, you know, really steering it and, um, you know, particularly if they have some background and knowledge about the task at hand. To Joe’s point earlier, domain knowledge, especially, um. That is the most valuable, um, you know, skillset that I think that a, a dev can bring to a project these days.

[00:20:31] Aaron Grando: Uh, as senior technical folks, what do we really think the implications for engineering roles at companies are? Like how does the engineering career path shift, um, when we’re moving from. Uh, you know, domain expert in code to potentially domain expert in the domain that you work inside of.

[00:20:52] Aaron Grando: So obviously we all work for a marketing company, um, and you know, through osmosis we have picked up a lot of marketing know how. Um, is that gonna be something that engineers need to focus on more moving forward? Uh, I’ll give that one to Fabio.

[00:21:08] Fabio Fiss: Yeah. So I think, um. In one way, it will open up more, um, capabilities for people, right?

[00:21:17] Fabio Fiss: So not just developers, but other people. I think for developers that are just starting out, they really should understand what the tools are capable of so they can enhance their. Process, right? Because there won’t be a scenario in the future where you’re not assisted by those technologies. So it’s really thinking about that you have as a developer and assistant driving with you, as I think where Microsoft got the word Copilot, right?

[00:21:44] Fabio Fiss: You’re still the pilot, but um, there’s always gonna be this assistant next to you, um, and, you know, learning to work with that assistant. I think is really important as we move into the future for a developer, right, for senior developers. I think in a way, these tools elevate them even higher in capabilities because you can take something that you already know.

[00:22:10] Fabio Fiss: Go even further with your knowledge, right? So you’re not gonna remove that expertise. There’s no way to remove that experience that was built up both on the marketing side and the technical side, but you are enhancing your capabilities. You’re building on top of your knowledge, and these tools will make you even more.

[00:22:28] Fabio Fiss: Uh, capable in, in a sense, right? So that’s, that’s where I see, um, where things are going for developers. You’re always gonna need that expertise. It’s just how the developer is driving the tools and, and how they are conducting that, that orchestra that I mentioned.

[00:22:46] Aaron Grando: Yeah, that, that engineering mindset is, in my opinion, super portable, like breaking down a problem into the constituent parts, understanding the ins and outs of a system you could take that know-how and maybe the know-how of how to set up an AI system that a lot of our engineers are, uh, starting to get good at and apply that to lots of other roles.

[00:23:09] Aaron Grando: Um, and. Maybe we’ll start to see more of that moving forward as, um, as engineering teams kind of evolve, uh, and the, the skills that are required and maybe having been traditionally kept within engineering kind of diffuse out. Um, and, um, you know, we welcome new expertises into the technology mix. Um, you know, back to one topic from earlier, we were thinking about helping out our juniors.

[00:23:36] Aaron Grando: Um, I, you know, I think that is a really big question. How do we make sure that we are taken care of? The new generation of folks that are coming up under us for a long time as developers, as engineers, there was, um, you know, they kind of natural handholding of. Uh, you know, engineering leads, engineering managers, um, reviewing code, um, reviewing commits, reviewing work that is done and offering suggestion.

[00:24:06] Aaron Grando: And, you know, juniors kind of over time learning how to make things work well. How does that happen when maybe a dev team shrinks because the capabilities of a, of a single senior. You know, greatly increases. Um, or, um, you know, a junior is able to just work with an AI copilot that is more skilled than they might be and is helping them ship really great work.

[00:24:32] Aaron Grando: How do they, how do they learn what is good? Um, do you have any thoughts on that, Joe?

[00:24:38] Joe DiGiovanna: Yeah, I think it’s honestly a really difficult question and one that just market wide. Everybody’s still kind of figuring out. I think when it comes to helping them out, at least when I think about our people internally, you know, reviewing, reviewing their commits, helping them refactor, helping them understand what they wrote, I, and, and more importantly than any of those, helping them debug when they run into issues and understanding how to debug.

[00:25:00] Joe DiGiovanna: I think that adds a lot of value to what they’re doing. Um, I do think there’s definitely going to be some issues with them running into like a Copilot that knows more than they do. ’cause at that point it becomes a struggle for them to actually acquire that knowledge. I, yeah, and that part of, part of what we’re doing here is though, is we are preventing them from using certain tools until they’ve achieved a certain amount.

[00:25:23] Joe DiGiovanna: So at least it gives them some, some level of background there, you know.

[00:25:27] Aaron Grando: Yeah, some small context there. Um, through mod ops, uh, intranet of, uh, AI tools that we have set up, we have a training course that allows folks to get a kind of baseline set of fundamentals on using AI and accept our responsible use policy, um, which also includes.

[00:25:46] Aaron Grando: Um, you know, training materials about ethics, about the way that this technology can and should be used to make sure that we’re using it right by ourselves and right by our clients. Um, we make everyone go through that set of trainings before they can even access the tool sets that we’ve built internally.

[00:26:03] Aaron Grando: And that’s, that’s one part of it. Um, part of this equation is, um, you know, upskilling folks. On those AI tool sets and those AI skills. But also, you know, I think one thing that we’re trying to do is take a look at each individual role on the team and see how their tools are integrating AI and try to put together content training resources for them.

[00:26:28] Aaron Grando: To apply the new AI way of doing things to some of our older tools. Um, so we have courses coming for Cursor and, and things like that, but I think there’s also courses for, you know, some of our more design focused tools and, and other like ai, art and, um, you know, content generation, uh, tools that, you know, really emphasize the way that we should do things, um, and put it in terms of the tools that they’re used to using.

[00:26:56] Aaron Grando: Um, well guys, I think let’s try and wrap this up. Um, I do wanna wrap it up on like a, a little bit of a higher note than worrying about the juniors. We love the juniors, definitely gonna try and take care of ’em. But, um, you know, let’s think of the next few years. What are we, you know, genuinely excited about this transition from?

[00:27:18] Aaron Grando: You know, having code be our primary, uh, instrument as we are affecting our digital world to maybe making, um, plain old English our primary instrument and affecting the world and the kind of doors that that opens up to other people, um, you know, bringing their skillsets in and joining the, the fray. Um, as, as engineers, uh, Fabio,

[00:27:41] Fabio Fiss: yes.

[00:27:42] Fabio Fiss: I think what I’m excited for with a lot of these shifts in technology is just. Uh, the process of, uh, making these tools more available and, uh, as a part of that process, democratizing access, right? So I do see very, uh, coming up in the very near future, I do see more people than just developers. Like I said.

[00:28:04] Fabio Fiss: Um. Taking advantage of these tools, right. So I, I am expecting the founder of a startup to be able to prototype with a tool like this, right? I’m expecting the CEO to be able to create a small application so they can show. What they want to do for a development team to execute and, and a project manager and that sort of thing.

[00:28:27] Fabio Fiss: Right. So, and I can see designers, um, and other types of team members taking advantage of these tools. Right. We are seeing. Uh, more recently, even Figma, uh, proposing some new functionality now, uh, and, and rolling out some new features that are gonna, you know, make the connection between the, the visual design with the, the code side.

[00:28:50] Fabio Fiss: Uh, it’s very nascent, right? So it’s still gonna develop over time, but that’s where I see it. I see more people have access to these tubes. I feel like, you know, AI in that level. Um. Of what we’re talking about for code is just another tool of expression in a sense, right? It, it’s the same kind of wave that happened over the ages with technology, with desktop publishing to the web, to the, to mobile, to social media.

[00:29:17] Fabio Fiss: And now we have a new wave of um, expression and I think more people are gonna take advantage of it and create things that we haven’t seen before. So I’m very excited for that.

[00:29:29] Joe DiGiovanna: Yeah. Joe, what are your thoughts? I was gonna say, when Fabio was saying that reminds me of the, the calculator. You know, it’s a big, big, big shift.

[00:29:35] Joe DiGiovanna: But the two, two things that came to mind most for me. Uh, so. Right now it’s allowing me to spend a lot more time on solving interesting problems as opposed to like mundane tasks. And that’s something I think is only gonna get better and better over the coming years. And then, uh, reducing barriers to experimenting with new ideas or new, new technologies.

[00:29:56] Joe DiGiovanna: So it’s already kind of opened that up for me, and I know as it gets better and better, it’s gonna open that up for more people.

[00:30:02] Aaron Grando: Yeah, and not to introduce a, a brand new concept right here at the end, but we had a fun new buzzword on the innovation team start getting tossed around over the course of the past week, which is a ‘pretotype.’

[00:30:13] Aaron Grando: Um, so we’ve been, uh, we’ve been needing a little bit of space carved out for pre prototype ideas that are, you know, either designed or vibe coded up. Um, before we even validate, uh, that things are, are looking good, but Right to that point, yeah. The more micro those like pre-visualization of ideas can get in terms of, you know, level of effort to get to something that really shows what, um, what’s inside of our heads.

[00:30:41] Aaron Grando: Uh, that’s really exciting. Um, and I think, you know, I’ll just, I’ll cap it off with a. An excitement about how, you know, these AI tools are, I think interesting, um, separate from other AI tools because they really accelerate more development, um, which is kind of an exponential function. So you have ai, accelerating ai, uh, and you know, internally here at Mod Op, it’s meant that we’ve been able to take.

[00:31:10] Aaron Grando: Um, a lot of big ideas that we have and turn them into real things, uh, for our folks to, to start to use real things for clients to start to implement in their digital products, their digital experiences. Um, hopefully it leads to, um, some very interesting work, um, that, you know, as I. Sometimes and want to say, um, creates novel creative experiences, um, that ha that wouldn’t be able to be done before using, you know, fuzzy logic and things that don’t necessarily need to sort themselves into super specific boxes.

[00:31:44] Aaron Grando: So I’m still really looking forward to that. Um, and just that all of this is, is. Coming faster and um, you know, more exciting than I, I ever really expected it to be. So, um, yeah, I think I would love to just thank Fabio and Joe for joining today. Um, we will be back again, I’m sure in another few days with another episode.

[00:32:07] Aaron Grando: This has been our vibe coding, uh, discussion. So thanks guys. Um, if you are looking for more resources on ai, um, we have an entire AI section on the mod op website dedicated to it. Come check it out. Give us a call, give us a, uh, drop your name and your info in the form that’s on that page. Um, and come, uh, work with us on the innovation team.

[00:32:33] Aaron Grando: We’re doing some really, really cool work, um, trying to push forward our both creative and performance marketing efforts. So, uh, thank you guys. Uh, and we will talk again sometime later soon.

[00:32:46] Joe DiGiovanna: Thank you.

[00:32:48] Fabio Fiss: Thank you.