From AI-Anxious To AI-Powered: How Marketers Can Use AI To Their Advantage

[00:00:00] Tessa Burg: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Leader Generation, brought to you by Mod Op. I’m your host Tessa Burg, and today I’m excited to welcome David Berkowitz. David is the founder of the AI Marketers Guild, Serial marketers and FOAF. Three incredible communities that bring together marketing leaders, innovators, and creators to explore what’s next.

[00:00:23] Tessa Burg: He has held senior roles at companies like Media Ocean, Publicis, 360i and he’s written over 600 columns. And if all of that was not enough. He is the author of The Non-Obvious Guide to Using AI for Marketing: How to Harness the Transformative Power of AI. Uh, David, such an incredible and impressive background.

[00:00:48] Tessa Burg: Thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:00:49] David Berkowitz: Well, thanks for having me as part of this very impressive series.

[00:00:54] Tessa Burg: And David and I have been on a panel together, so I know that his expertise in storytelling is something you’re really gonna enjoy. So let’s dive in. First, tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey, uh, thus far in AI.

[00:01:11] David Berkowitz: Yeah, well, um, marketer and community builder and with AI, a lot of it was, uh, tying different pieces together. Even nearly 10 years ago when I was working with this company, SMOs, in the social listening space, I’d actually commissioned a report with the Drum outta the UK on marketers hopes and fears, uh, for using ai.

[00:01:29] David Berkowitz: And I got some early exposure to it. They had, uh, the, the Sysomos that had acquired this, uh, brilliant company out of India, Gaze Metrics. And I was learning, like, I, even now, some of the conversations that I’m having today are. Fulfilling the promise of what they were talking about a decade ago. And so I got this taste of it.

[00:01:46] David Berkowitz: But then as this era of generative AI started a few years ago, uh, I already had my first community Serial Marketers for a few years and I, and I was even looking around and saying like, where can I get together with other marketers? And something that’s more. Pure driven to understand how to apply all this stuff and what matters for marketers.

[00:02:06] David Berkowitz: Uh, and I was like, well, I didn’t see it, and I guess I gotta create it. And here we are.

[00:02:11] Tessa Burg: Yeah. Well, I’m glad that you did, and I love the YouTube channel and the content that you’re putting out, but let’s talk a little bit about the book. I love the title and the word non-obvious. Can you tell us what does non-obvious mean in the context of AI and where are you seeing the most surprising and unconventional ways that businesses are successfully applying AI in marketing?

[00:02:38] David Berkowitz: Yeah, well, with non-obvious, and I gotta, uh, credit the, uh, publishers at I Idea Press and Rohit Bava for really coining the term non-obvious and, and getting to be part of this incredible series that they’re doing. Uh, but, uh, but also like, you know, there, there’s so much of this, uh, conversation of like, is AI gonna take my job or not.

[00:02:57] David Berkowitz: And like, there are a lot of legitimate concerns, but it’s like, uh, I keep thinking with, uh, with AI so much of it ties back to the Serenity Prayer. Uh, uh, and so it’s accepting what you have control over and then like what you can’t change. Like you gotta know the difference. So there are parts of it that all of us can do no matter, you know, how big or small, how front office or back office, like, you know, creative media data, it doesn’t matter.

[00:03:25] David Berkowitz: Like it’s here, it can and should be part of our jobs to some extent. It shouldn’t be the entirety. Of what we’re dealing with. And so and so in terms of how it’s being applied, you know, it to me, uh, the, the other, uh, the other quote that comes to mind a lot, um, may be less obviously, is from the Little Prince.

[00:03:47] David Berkowitz: Uh, and that’s, you know, that which is important is invisible to the eyes. And so, um, so, so to me, a much more obvious example that. People have a lot of opinions about, uh, are the Coke holiday ads, right? Uh, and it’s clearly like they’re hitting you over the head with the AI. Um, maybe people love it. Maybe people hate it.

[00:04:10] David Berkowitz: Maybe people think it’s different. I dunno. I mean, I think it’s kind of soulless. Uh, but, uh, but if it sells more so to like o Okay, that’s fine. Uh, but it’s, uh, I think that Coke is, is often doing what people think of as far as where AI goes. Um, versus one of my favorite campaigns out, out there and actually, uh, learns from, uh, from the Cannes Lion crew and like some of the work that they were highlighting, uh, and, and this, uh, incredible campaign from the pet food company.

[00:04:44] David Berkowitz: Pedigree part of Mars, uh, uh, and specifically some work that they launched out of New Zealand. Uh, and they called it AD optimal. Uh, and so, so they decided to go and make a big investment in featuring pets in their ads that were adoptable at local shelters. And in doing so, they used AI throughout the entire process.

[00:05:08] David Berkowitz: In terms of, uh, in terms of targeting. The right kinds of dogs for the right kinds of homes. So if there’s an area with a lot of high rises, you know, you might want smaller dogs versus it’s an area with a lot of backyards and they can have, have some bigger dogs. Uh uh, and, and so the using data very heavily in the targeting.

[00:05:27] David Berkowitz: Also in the creative, they were able to take images of real dogs and then just. Pose them in different ways and make it work. Like, so if you have a, a vertical ad versus a horizontal ad, you can still have pictures of the same animal and then go and, and adapt it. And they had a, they did a tremendous job actually getting pets adopted at from local shelters.

[00:05:53] David Berkowitz: And they, uh, and they said that they were committing to making all of their advertising cause-driven in the years ahead. I mean, it, it’s incredible. So their brand was really clear, uh, uh, it was clearly working for them in, in having this memorable and positive association. They’re doing good. They still have their creative teams, right?

[00:06:16] David Berkowitz: They still have their media teams, they still have their data teams. They still have their people working together, but they’re doing something that, first of all. The consumer seeing this probably has no idea. AI, machine learning, all this stuff is anywhere in the picture and it’s delivering something of value.

[00:06:32] David Berkowitz: Even if you’re not a dog person, it’s probably brightening your day a little bit to see that a company is doing this.

[00:06:39] Tessa Burg: Yeah, I love, love that example because. That is what I get most excited about is AI unlocking and making something possible that has not been done before.

[00:06:54] David Berkowitz: Yeah,

[00:06:55] Tessa Burg: and your example is so grounded in the brand and the brand that Pedigree wants to be, and instead of looking at, hey, where can AI do creative ’cause we’re already doing creative or where can AI send this ad out? ’cause we’re already sending ads out. They looked at their brand and said, where can we show up our brand values and what we stand for in a way that we’ve never been able to do before? And that is just such a powerful example.

[00:07:29] Tessa Burg: But such a, a big strategic ask of companies to think differently.

[00:07:35] David Berkowitz: And, and that’s so much the potential right now. And I, and this is what I think every brand and agency should be asking, any vendor that comes their way. Um, any other kind of, uh, uh, creative or or other kind of services partner? Like what is different now, especially if we look at November, 2022, you know, as that big, cataclysmic event maybe, or, uh, incredibly, uh, uh, momentous event.

[00:08:03] David Berkowitz: Where ChatGPT was released to the world and Gen AI era started. It’s like, like what really is different now versus before? And what aren’t we doing now that we can do that we couldn’t even think about? What are those possibilities? And, and this is where I love even sometimes it’s just. You know, sometimes it can actually start with a feature, right?

[00:08:27] David Berkowitz: Like some of the inspiration could even be like, did you realize you could actually use AI to take this one image and adapt it for different banner sizes, right? Like, that’s not that exciting. In the surface, the creative and media teams, like, they came up with some really exciting ways to apply that, but, uh, but even some of that functionality, that could be a really big unlock for something that.

[00:08:50] David Berkowitz: The like, the creative team might have never explored an idea like this in the first place if they didn’t know that that was possible. And so now understanding what’s possible becomes a huge unlock.

[00:09:02] Tessa Burg: Yeah, I agree. And I feel like some companies that have built a lot of tools and built a lot of agents, and now they’re trying to get people to adopt them, they’re hitting this wall on adoption.

[00:09:14] Tessa Burg: And it is because it requires a lot of change, and it requires me to think differently. Where an example you gave, it can really be a rallying point. If people take a step back and think about their brand and maybe even, you know, if my brand was a person, what would it want to do? You know, Pedigree’s brand as a person.

[00:09:37] Tessa Burg: It, maybe it would wanna go out and help people find dogs to adopt. And you know, like maybe there’s. People think more of that personification of their brand and, and the brand being able to do things that could be another good starting point. And then looking at agents that already exist and looking at tech has already exists is you also have to do that.

[00:09:58] Tessa Burg: You kind of have to understand fundamentally what’s possible so that the two can come together and create a solution that is truly unique to your company and specific to your brand.

[00:10:09] David Berkowitz: Yeah, and, and I mean, you bring up something really important there in terms of the goal, right? Because like if, if, if Pedigree in its, you know, less altruistic mindset is saying, well, hmm, you know, what’s the, you know, what, what’s the best way to.

[00:10:27] David Berkowitz: Increase sales of pet food. It’s to get more people to have pets and to get pet owners to have even more pets now, like, you know, it can almost be this nefarious plot, right? Like this clearly, uh, uh, not some evil layer that the hatch, you know, they came up with the, uh, most noble and good hearted version of this possible.

[00:10:47] David Berkowitz: And this is obviously like a very pro pet and pro pet owner campaign, but it, but it’s not unlike CPG companies when they realize well. You know, if we could actually get people to cook with our products, like they might buy not just a bottle of it, they might buy a case of it, you know? Uh, and so it’s just, uh, thinking differently in terms of, uh, of what that goal can be.

[00:11:10] David Berkowitz: And then yeah. Uh, and then then seeing, well, now, now what could we do to get there?

[00:11:16] Tessa Burg: Mm-hmm. So let’s bring this down to the practical level, and I’ll just make one more note on that. As someone who recently went through. The pet rescue adoption process, it is really hard. You know, you’re like following multiple Facebook groups and you, it’s, man, I would’ve loved just been paired with the perfect pet.

[00:11:39] David Berkowitz: Oh, oh, oh, I’d love it. Yeah. My daughter spent months looking, uh, looking at Petfinder and wound up with a, a couple of an amazing, of amazing rescue cats here. So, yeah.

[00:11:48] Tessa Burg: That’s awesome. So if we pull this down to that practical application layer. Again, marketers, they’re still trying to find this fit of where AI is integrating.

[00:11:59] Tessa Burg: Uh, where have you seen that successful, like where have marketers been able to integrate AI into an existing system or a workflow that gives ’em that practical experience?

[00:12:10] David Berkowitz: Well, the, the great thing is, uh, that there are, first of all, so many ways to go and try and test things really easily, even privately, you know, before you deploy this organization wide and also.

[00:12:23] David Berkowitz: The best starting point is often like, where do you. Live day to day, you know, uh, and if you live in spreadsheets, I mean, Microsoft gets beaten up a a bit for, uh, people not always loving Copilot. Uh uh, but if you spend a lot of time in Excel, like that’s actually the place I’ve seen marketers most love Copilot’s value. The idea that you can talk to your data and tell it what you wanna do and not necessarily spend all your time trying to look, you know, look up all, you know, all these different strings for exactly how to get one cell to talk to another. Ultimately being able to talk to different sources of data at one time and, uh, and have them interact with each other, that was not readily possible before.

[00:13:14] David Berkowitz: Uh, if you are more creative oriented, I was just, uh, talked to someone about, sending out a survey before a training session, and she’s like, like it would be. Really good to be able to, uh, yeah, like is there any video you recommend or something like that? Uh, uh, for what would really bring this to life?

[00:13:34] David Berkowitz: And I said. I’m just gonna go create one. She’s like, what? She’s like, how long? I, I’m like, like, I’ll do it tonight. And, uh, and so I, I just, and I told her, I’m like, this is not gonna be perfect. This is not gonna be the prettiest thing ever, but it’s gonna actually be directly tied to what we’re talking about.

[00:13:53] David Berkowitz: Uh, and so the, so all of these things, it’s like, like start where you are and, and if you’re using any major off the shelf tool, there’s probably an AI component that. Uh, yeah. HubSpot, Salesforce, you know, the Google suite that you’re probably not using yet and you can experiment with. And then, uh, and then if you are, there’s so many ways to go deeper with a, a lot of specialized applications, but the fact is, it doesn’t matter whether you are in legal, uh, uh, you’re working the front desk, uh, or you’re the creative director, like, like wherever you are, there are going to be ways to apply this now.

[00:14:32] Tessa Burg: And just outta curiosity, what application. Are you using to create the video?

[00:14:37] David Berkowitz: Um, so it, so in this case, uh, I, I literally just created this with Augie Studio. Uh, and so, so big fan of what, what they’re building. I, I mean, I use Hey Gen a lot for avatar driven videos. Uh, uh, uh, yeah, I use. Uh, I’ll, I’ll use Opus, uh, Clips to go and then cut longer form video and shorter clips.

[00:14:59] David Berkowitz: So again, it’s also even the, the niche within the niche that you’re trying to do, there’s probably something really good for that. And if you’re trying to do something really general, like create just a general image or like a five second video or something, then the generic tools like, like ChatGPT, and Google Gemini wind up coming in handy often for that first pass.

[00:15:22] Tessa Burg: That’s interesting. Yeah. I have used the generic tools and then we use Descript on the podcast. And like a lot of my videos, I’m just using like the AI generated screen recorders, which has been very helpful. Because I can, if you listen to any other podcast, talk a little bit too long and like really easily synthesize it down to the highlights without having to be edited, which is just one of my what a time saver.

[00:15:51] David Berkowitz: Um, it’s amazing. Yeah.

[00:15:53] Tessa Burg: So, uh, when we talk about moving from, okay, I’m using it to create things, it’s giving me the ability to do things that I’ve never done before. A lot of that inspiration comes from new insights. What are some ways that you’re seeing marketers be able to uncover new insights and new Aha’s using AI?

[00:16:15] David Berkowitz: Well, there are a few ways with that. Uh, one is like I’ve done some market research projects that involve having conversations like this, but then being able to record them and, and then. And then I get to be very present for the interviews I’m doing themselves. I often start with a long list of questions and then quickly ignore them and just wanna have a conversation, and then afterwards it winds up being really powerful because I can go and, and take all those transcripts and then start.

[00:16:48] David Berkowitz: Asking a lot of questions about this, and I’m like, uh, so, so now with these two people, what do they have in common? What are their points of difference? Uh, you know, if we look at all 10 of these together, what are the opportunities? What, what are the kinds of, uh, media that they’re reading? What, you know, what do they do for fun?

[00:17:07] David Berkowitz: Any of these questions that relate to what, uh, what you’re asking for. And so you can have this. This post round of interviews that are based on exactly what was being said and now go so much deeper, so much faster and deliver that, uh, report where it’s still you asking the questions and deriving those insights and taking this where you want to go.

[00:17:33] David Berkowitz: And then. Clearly making the recommendations you want based on that. Um, but with, uh, uh, just with this whole, almost like virtual team working on your behalf, that, also get you closer to the information, you know, if you’re used to having, say, an analyst or a researcher who’s leading that for you, uh, and maybe they’re even taking that first pass, but you can ask them those questions directly now.

[00:17:58] David Berkowitz: So, so I find that very exciting. There’s a whole. Fascinating and often controversial area right now, uh, about synthetic research.

[00:18:08] Tessa Burg: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:08] David Berkowitz: Uh, and so asking, you know, fake, you know, synthetic. People of sorts, their opinions on things. There are different versions, uh, of this. Some are based on interviews with real people and then you have that AI version of them that, that you’re then interacting with.

[00:18:29] David Berkowitz: Some are entirely based on, uh, some assumptions and algorithms and, uh, and, and you can probably ask panels that are much bigger that. Give you some pretty interesting feedback. Like they’re decent sounding boards. I don’t think that they replace dealing with humans, especially if you are dealing with something that no one’s ever seen before.

[00:18:54] David Berkowitz: And so if you look at, you know, Disney has this magical holiday ad out right now that’s totally different from the Coke ad, you know, there’s some, there’s a computer generated character in it. Maybe they used AI to help create it, but it is a very human-centric ad. Um, if you ask a synthetic focus group about it, like, like there’s just something really novel and inspiring about this, you, and it’s just like all the magic of Disney storytelling in a holiday ad.

[00:19:26] David Berkowitz: Uh, and so I’m not sure that you’d get that feedback that you would from like seeing someone’s face light up, you know? As soon as they see where this ad is going versus like the Coke ad that’s like a little more recycled and you know, it’s just like the latest version of their series and you could actually probably test that very well.

[00:19:46] David Berkowitz: You, it’s like made with AI, tested with AI, why not? Right?

[00:19:51] Tessa Burg: Yeah. I like that distinction of value between real people and synthetic audiences. We’ve. Been hearing synthetic audience come up a lot in client conversations because they want an alternative to running so much market intelligence and so much market research.

[00:20:09] Tessa Burg: And I think there is a role, and like you said, like if you need some general directional feedback, but something that people need to realize is it’s not being updated. So it’s going to become like less accurate and less reflective over time. It’s still synthetic, still holds a lot of the same challenges that LLMs and the core functional models hold.

[00:20:35] Tessa Burg: And sometimes I think there’s an underestimation of how inaccurate foundational models can be. And sometimes people are asking the wrong questions. Gen AI isn’t good at answering everything. Uh, so it’s it, it is interesting. But I like that it’s like they’re not terrible. They are very useful. I, I for sure think synthetic audiences play a role, but in the example you gave, that the, the human side of it is, is still necessary.

[00:21:05] David Berkowitz: Mm-hmm. And, in the pedigree example, if you’re trying to do, uh, first pass of research and say like, you know, what are people’s pain points with, uh, with pet adoption and, uh, uh, and so how are people going about and, and yeah, finding what pets to adopt and what makes them choose between, uh, uh, a shelter pet and a breeder.

[00:21:29] David Berkowitz: Then. Um, and then like you could probably get like 89% of the way there with like a lot of that directional information to start. If figuring out like how you even ask better questions so that when you start talking to people about this, it’s like you become really well informed and it’s even a little more fun, right?

[00:21:46] David Berkowitz: Because you can then say, uh, uh, like you can even grill fake people like, like you can ask. Synthetic audiences that are bought from breeders. Like, do you feel badly about this? Or like, you know, and you don’t necessarily have to feel badly about asking people these questions about their life choices here and, and, and, you know, uh, all kinds of great reasons.

[00:22:08] David Berkowitz: Some, some of my favorite pets are breeder pets. You can have this interaction in a safe space and get smarter in in a hurry, but yeah, it’s not likely going to lead to that degree of insight, uh, as you will with more of that human connection.

[00:22:26] Tessa Burg: Yeah, I love that example. ’cause.

[00:22:27] Tessa Burg: When you’re able to ask anything, that also unlocks those opportunities to do something very new that hasn’t been done before. And it, that made me realize like maybe when you’re too guarded with your questions for professional reasons

[00:22:44] David Berkowitz: Yeah.

[00:22:46] Tessa Burg: You’re not uncover, like, there’s always that saying you don’t know what you don’t know.

[00:22:50] David Berkowitz: Right.

[00:22:50] Tessa Burg: And that, that part of it can stay in the dark when you don’t have the freedom to really kind of dig deep.

[00:22:57] David Berkowitz: Yeah, it’s even the difference, like, um, we’ve both done these panels and if there’s a room where it’s off the record versus on the record and it’s like a room where, you know, everything’s gonna be shared on social media versus no one does that there, uh, or if it’s in an academic context even better, and like they’re not trying to prove anything by like, uh, say how smart they are and they don’t have that, uh, fear of asking questions.

[00:23:22] David Berkowitz: Then you get some really, really good ones when it’s a little more behind closed doors.

[00:23:26] Tessa Burg: Yeah. Oh, that is so funny. So this is really redefining what it means to be, uh, a data-driven marketer. And you talk about this in your book that, you know, this gives data-driven decision making an opportunity to be a core part of the process.

[00:23:44] Tessa Burg: And I feel like that’s something marketers have said, but not always done. What are some of the unlocks that AI is now making available?

[00:23:52] David Berkowitz: Well, uh. First of all, like we’re, we’re still dealing with some of the, uh, the same challenges of, you know, like garbage in, garbage out. Right? Uh, um, and, and there’s the, there’s also a whole slew of things that like, we’ve gotta now figure out from scratch, right?

[00:24:11] David Berkowitz: Like, do we need new metrics for AI? Uh. Uh, on the flip side, there are things that are so exciting. Uh, I mean to, to me, just one of the most powerful functional aspects is being able to have multiple data sources in one place, and then. That conversational layer with it. Um, and that democratization of data where, uh, again, like, like, like none of this replaces what a great analyst can do, uh, and, and deliver.

[00:24:47] David Berkowitz: But then, uh, now. Like, you have access to like some of that analyst type thinking 24 7 whenever you need it. And uh, uh, and especially for those day-to-day lower lifts. So, uh, but, but there’s, there’s so much now that. We need to figure out the value of, for instance, as we go into this AI powered search era and this era of AI overviews, then looking at what’s the value for instance of being mentioned in an AI overview or in a, a roundup of ChatGPT, even if someone isn’t then clicking that link, right?

[00:25:30] David Berkowitz: Like, like there are lots of things that. We have to now determine the value of that maybe we didn’t before.

[00:25:37] Tessa Burg: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I love that. I’m taking some notes that spark some ideas, some right now, like just the idea of democratization and creating the safe spaces for people to ask questions on their own, like I think that is so empowering and can again really lead to unlocking those new opportunities for brands.

[00:25:59] Tessa Burg: To go to market, to engage with their customers differently, to create a new immersive experience. That in itself introduces new ways to learn about your audience, and one of the experiences that has changed the most is how customers and how B2B clients are researching and finding products and finding brands.

[00:26:21] Tessa Burg: We’re seeing more data come out that. You know, LLMs, Foundational Models, ChatGPT is a big part of that process. And now you are finding that you have to update your book already about this thing called GEO. Like, tell us a little bit about why, why that is so important and what marketers need to know heading into next year about this new space.

[00:26:43] David Berkowitz: Well, uh, I mean, it’s, it’s so key because what you’re saying in terms of how, uh, yeah, this, this is where so much research and discoveries taking place. Uh, uh, more and more. This is how, uh, uh, this is. What’s influencing the buying process of just reading some research from SEMrush, the search engine marketing, uh, uh, company, and, uh, showing how they expect traffic from AI powered sources to overtake traffic from.

[00:27:18] David Berkowitz: Search, uh, search engine results in 2028. So this is like, you know, uh, it might not affect you very much today, but it, but it can just creep up on you and then all of a sudden it becomes this dominant force. One of the fascinating things, uh, that, uh, that I’m also seeing from, from multiple sources, uh, is how.

[00:27:42] David Berkowitz: Is how a lot of the links that are surfaced in AI results are actually results that are, uh, links that are typically on page three or beyond of search engine results pages. Uh, so some of these things that are. Buried when you are normally searching, actually are front and center in part because the AI engines, uh, are looking for the most relevant specific link.

[00:28:09] David Berkowitz: And they have access to so much data going into this that they can make some inferences that are maybe. A little less obvious. Uh, and so this does start changing the nature, uh, of how you think about SEO and, and some of it is just the basics of reputation management. Uh, uh, I mean, just knowing how your brand, your products, your company, your leaders come up in AI engines, especially for what we think of as non-branded queries.

[00:28:45] David Berkowitz: Yeah. Uh, and, and, and that’s one of those things like, it’s one thing to put your company name into ChatGPT or Gemini, and see, uh, what it says about it. It’s, it’s another thing to say, uh, who are the top five market leaders in this specific category? And if you’re not in there and you expect to be like, that can be a real eyeopener, especially if you’ve always been on page one of Google.

[00:29:10] Tessa Burg: Yeah. No, that’s a good, we’ve been doing that and it is, it’s disheartening. But to your point, the ba, not a lot of people really thought about reputation management or the role that PR plays, and it plays what we’re seeing a much bigger role in GEO than it even did in SEO. Like in SEO, I think. A lot of companies recognize that they needed back links.

[00:29:33] Tessa Burg: They’re like, well, let’s do, when we do PR press releases, let’s make sure we get those back links and that will be the juice. And now when you’re looking at PR, it’s not, it is about getting a story out there, being totally authentic and very, very specific in, I don’t know how else to say this, but like loud about your perspective.

[00:29:55] David Berkowitz: Mm-hmm. ‘

[00:29:55] Tessa Burg: Cause when you can create that attention and. High value places and you are, you know, LLMs are just looking for patterns and you are the answer in the repeated component in that pattern, then yes, you’re gonna get more visibility in LLMs, but that’s, you know, one thing that I’ve seen take a little bit more priority is reputation management, PR.

[00:30:18] Tessa Burg: How are we telling our story and being consistent about that and having a very specific and authentic position.

[00:30:25] David Berkowitz: I’m, I’m glad you said that too, ’cause uh, uh, I, I talked to clients this about this a lot where PR is becoming more important, just like you’re, you’re saying. And, uh, and part of it is these, uh, uh, the LLMs, these AI engine, they’re, they’re buying a lot of data from major media companies, uh, and additionally.

[00:30:52] David Berkowitz: Whether it’s a news story or press release, this is highly structured, usually very well tagged data. And so, so this information fits really nicely into what, uh, um, what a lot of these AI engines are looking for. And so even if someone, uh, isn’t widely reading this story at first, like that, uh, long-term effect, uh, can be pretty pronounced.

[00:31:21] Tessa Burg: Yep. Yes, I agree. The other buzzword that’s getting a lot of attention outside of GEO is agents, and you said this earlier in the episode that. There’s a lot of conversation about, people feel like their job’s gonna be replaced, their role’s gonna be replaced, and the word agent tends to be associated with that.

[00:31:44] Tessa Burg: So when you are thinking about agents, what do marketers need to know and prepare for, and should people be super worried that agents are coming for their jobs?

[00:31:53] David Berkowitz: Well, if you are in a highly repetitive, you know, task oriented field, like data entry, uh, probably, uh, you, you should be concerned that, uh, that this is something that can be automated pretty well with, not too much human review, especially one, uh, you know, once you really get this going.

[00:32:14] David Berkowitz: Uh, I think like a, a lot of traditionally entry level jobs. Wind up being at risk. And so, so you know, where we then get that next generation of talent from, uh, and what they’re even doing at first, uh, becomes a much bigger challenge right now, , and for the most part, uh, it’s like if, if. All you’re doing is something that could be heavily automated.

[00:32:41] David Berkowitz: Um, then yeah, like there, it’s probably time to look for ways to provide more value as part of that process. And, and, and sometimes though it’s kind of like what you see even with routine tasks, uh, where, uh. Writing a first draft of a press release, if you have some good information going into it, like why not have, uh, AI take a pass at that, especially if it’s not, you know, a major security issue or, uh, something like, like that you’re, uh.

[00:33:13] David Berkowitz: Uh, able to cover, uh, things that way. But the difference between that first and final draft can usually be really profound, even if you’ve saved some of that legwork early on. With the agents though, like they, the whole point is that they’ll be able to do more kinds of tasks for longer and be able to string different kinds of things together for longer periods of time.

[00:33:40] David Berkowitz: Um, but again, like it’s not going to replace most kinds of, uh, uh, most kinds of roles. Um. It’s just going to then make you think, well, like what are those things that can be outsourced to this and, and what can’t be, and what kind of work that you’re doing, like what can be augmented now that you just didn’t even have time to do before and now by, like, if you had.

[00:34:09] David Berkowitz: Team of agents working for you? Like what would you do with them and uh, and, and what could you deliver? Like, like they’re just, one of the things I’ve discovered with this age of AI is that there are even proposals I’ve submitted that I couldn’t have submitted before this era of Gen AI. Yeah. Uh, uh, just things where some parts of the job become really, uh, compressed and I can deliver more value faster.

[00:34:36] Tessa Burg: Yeah.

[00:34:36] David Berkowitz: Um. Yeah. That, that becomes a, a pretty big deal. Right. And, and I think that’s true for, uh, for fields that so many of us are in right now.

[00:34:47] Tessa Burg: No, I agree. Um, I’m just googling something. One of the, there’s, I’m gonna run this by, so what I’ve been starting to message internally Is, you know, agents are software.

[00:35:05] Tessa Burg: And there’s a couple of things that happen with software. It is, it starts in an MVP state, and we base that MVP by prioritizing features that we think are going to deliver at, like you said, that value faster in a way that we can continue to iterate and we keep iterating over and over and over again.

[00:35:27] Tessa Burg: And as we gather data from the MVP and then the version one. We learn new things and often to make the most of any piece of software, there’s some new skill involved. You start to use this piece of software in new ways or different ways than the previous process. All softwares coming in to solve a different challenge, but one example that popped in my head, I don’t know why, when you were talking, I think it’s because you said it delivers value faster.

[00:35:57] Tessa Burg: Was Instagram, and I always loved the story of that. I heard from Instagram’s founder on how when they launched their MVP. They did a lot of this stuff manually. Like there was, there were things that looked like they were happening automatically, but they were actually doing it manually until they proved out, like, okay, that’s a feature we should build.

[00:36:19] Tessa Burg: And so they started adding people who could help build those features. So as if we look at this as like an agent, as I create an agent and my agent gets smarter and my agent does other things. I, as I’m looking at how well the agent is doing the work, I’m gonna find opportunities to do it faster, better, smarter, to continue to deliver value in a new or different way.

[00:36:43] Tessa Burg: But it’s me as the human that’s continuously iterating. And if I have many agents, then I’m looking at, well, I need more people to help scale out how the value I’ve created here can be made available to democratize to others and. We’re starting to see that, and so I just googled. I’m like, how many people work at Instagram now?

[00:37:06] Tessa Burg: Because if you think about Instagram. When you first downloaded it and you look at it now, yeah, there’s some new features, but at the end of the day, the va, the value that you started with, which is able to take amazing pictures with zero skill and add fun filters and share it out with your friends, that’s still the value.

[00:37:27] Tessa Burg: It’s. Delivery. The content has diversified. The way in which you receive content is smarter, maybe, or addictive, you know, depending on where you fall on that. But there’s 20,100 employees at Instagram and they started 12.

[00:37:45] David Berkowitz: Yeah.

[00:37:46] Tessa Burg: So I think that the more we lean into. Like a growth mindset and, and understanding that agents are software and software is an iterative process and being open to make, using our humanness to unlock those creative opportunities.

[00:38:08] Tessa Burg: There will be new roles as we look at what are the new challenges that are introduced because we’re working differently. ’cause we have new skills, ’cause we have these new opportunities and when we wanna scale that value faster. That’s going to require people.

[00:38:23] David Berkowitz: Yeah. Well, uh, and, and an area that I, I think brings a lot of that to life right now is one of my favorites is in terms of vibe coding.

[00:38:32] Tessa Burg: Yeah.

[00:38:32] David Berkowitz: And, uh, and this idea that you can code just by talking. Uh, to this website, uh, development app. And, and I’ve used lovable. I spend a lot of time these days on Base 44. There are a bunch of really good ones out there. And, uh, and, and I love when, when I give, uh, uh, when I give some solo talks now, I’ll usually have a companion site that I vibe coded and, uh, and, and sometimes I’ll be.

[00:39:03] David Berkowitz: Adapting it while I’m hearing like other speakers at this event. And then, you know, incorporating some of their ideas and, and playing around with this is, uh, uh, and bring something to life right there, uh, in a really interactive way so that the experience doesn’t just end the moment I get off the stage and then I’m may deliver something of value now when I’m trying to do something more involved with this.

[00:39:28] David Berkowitz: I go to a developer and say, can you help me go and really make this work well? But, but this is the kind of thing that, the fact that like any business owner, it Yeah. Uh, can go and do this now. Just, just like, you know, 20 years ago it was a pretty radical idea thanks to Google and early days of, of Facebook that.

[00:39:53] David Berkowitz: Any business could advertise directly, you know, and, and engage in self service ads like that could reach anyone anywhere. So this was a big, uh, big leap beyond the classifieds and yellow pages that, you know, they had access to before. So now this sense of, of what you’re talking about, that because there are these like space, age, you know, uh, uh, tech possibilities that a few years ago would’ve cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, right?

[00:40:28] David Berkowitz: Look at like the ways we generate avatars now and things like that. Now, you would’ve needed a movie studio five years ago to go and, and, and do this. You would, uh, it’s would’ve had to happen. I like, we. Workshop or uh, uh, the Lucas film to go and do things like this that we can do on our phones now for like free to 30 bucks a month.

[00:40:50] David Berkowitz: Um, but when we wanna do them really well, like, okay, you know, we gotta hire an agency, we gotta hire consultants, we gotta go and. A and like get those subject matter experts to really make this sing. Which is also why, even going back to that, uh, Coke ad example, I mean it’s, it’s, it’s wild to see how many humans were involved,

[00:41:10] Tessa Burg: right? Yeah.

[00:41:11] David Berkowitz: It’s a huge creative team. They, they put on that. So this wasn’t exactly, it’s like, it’s almost like why did they even use AI for it if there are that many people involved, but like very happy for that creative team that yeah, they’re gainfully employed.

[00:41:28] Tessa Burg: Right. And it’s funny, we, we know that creative team and it gets back to the way they did that.

[00:41:34] Tessa Burg: Yes, there were definitely a lot of humans, it delivered the value faster.

[00:41:38] David Berkowitz: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:38] Tessa Burg: Like, I feel like that’s as, I don’t know if it’s just Americans, but we always seem to crave that.

[00:41:46] Tessa Burg: Yeah. I don’t wanna wait, I wanna do it myself. People wanting to lean into self-service is also not a new theme because then I get to do it exactly the way that I wanted to see it.

[00:41:57] Tessa Burg: And we’ve run into too, and needing to like add more people after a vibe coded application. But one thing the vibe coding has really unlocked is clarity of requirements and clarity of intent.

[00:42:10] David Berkowitz: Mm.

[00:42:11] Tessa Burg: When you’re able to spin up an application very quickly in collaboration with a client or in collaboration with whoever you’re working with at the time and see.

[00:42:20] Tessa Burg: The way they’re gonna use it, see the questions they’re gonna ask. Get that additional context and see their facial expressions as they’re navigating through or, or leave ’em with it for a while. And what, what doesn’t work? What works? I feel like you’re getting that MVP data before you even design the MVP.

[00:42:36] David Berkowitz: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:36] Tessa Burg: And then again, like the value faster, like that’s huge. Now when you launch at the core value, it’s the impact will be higher because you

[00:42:47] David Berkowitz: Yeah.

[00:42:47] Tessa Burg: Already soft launched.

[00:42:50] David Berkowitz: Absolutely.

[00:42:51] Tessa Burg: So we’re at time. I mean, I wanna keep going clock and I, uh, I have five minutes till the next part. This conversation has been great David.

[00:43:01] Tessa Burg: So thank you so much for all the insights. Before we end, I wanted to know you sit in a seat. A lot of people don’t get the, you know, the opportunity to sit in seeing lots of different applications across lots of different businesses. Have there, has there been like an emerging truth that you think back to that serenity prayer people just need to accept, especially as we head into 2026 and this landscape is only going to change more and move faster?

[00:43:30] David Berkowitz: Uh, I, I mean, I’d say that the, the. Truth that is most important. Uh, uh, to me, I mean, it, it, it maybe goes back to Yoda, uh, talk about ancient wisdom here. Uh, and, and it’s just, you know, uh, do, there is no try. I’m really bad with my Star Wars quotes, but, uh, but you can actually. Do things right now. And, and this I think is, you know, uh, even, uh, uh, like vibe coding is a good example of this.

[00:44:03] David Berkowitz: I is that just in the privacy of your own home or your cubicle or wherever you are. You can go and experiment with things. You can test the waters on things. You can get a, you can know and there are free applications where you can start asking synthetic research panel. So, which everything that we even discussed today, if there’s one of them that you have.

[00:44:28] David Berkowitz: No familiarity with, yeah, you go Google it, maybe you or I drop the name of, of a tool to use. Maybe not. Or you ask ChatGPT or Claude, or your favorite AI engine or the, you know, uh, you know, a, a trusted friend and said, what should I get started with? And just try something and bring this to, because there’s nothing that replaces that experiential knowledge, but we’ve also never had this much opportunity to engage experientially with, with things.

[00:45:01] David Berkowitz: Um, and, and just to be able to do that our, like, that really has been democratized at an incredible level and I, I think it’s just so powerful and exciting.

[00:45:12] Tessa Burg: Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you again so much for joining us and I want to repeat the title of the book, um, and I cannot find it, but if people want to find you and the book, I’ve Lost My Place.

[00:45:30] Tessa Burg: Title of the book is Non-Obvious Guide to Using AI for Marketing, how to Harness the Transformative Power of AI. I found it on Amazon. And if people wanna reach out to you directly, where can they find you?

[00:45:43] David Berkowitz: Uh, so aimarketersguild.com. Uh, highcaliberai.com. I’m LinkedIn, I’m D Berkowitz on most sites, so, uh, yeah.

[00:45:52] David Berkowitz: Uh, happy to connect.

[00:45:54] Tessa Burg: Awesome. Well, until next time, David, have a great weekend and rest of the week, and for listeners who want to hear more episodes of Leader Generation, you can find them at modop.com. That’s modop.com/podcast or wherever you listen to your podcast. All right, until next time, we’re out.