GEO vs. SEO: What Really Matters For AI-Driven Search

[00:00:00] Patty Parobek: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Leader Generation, brought to you by Mod Op. I am Patty Parobek. Stepping in today for your host Tessa Burg, and joined today by Gareth Cunningham and Maurice White, our Director of Search Experience, and our Senior Search Strategist here at Mod Op. Maurice and Gareth, thanks for being here today.

[00:00:25] Gareth Cunningham: Good to be here, thanks.

[00:00:25] Maurice White: Thank you.

[00:00:29] Patty Parobek: I’m really excited about today’s topic. We’re diving into the elements of generative AI optimization, so GEO, AIO, ASO … whatever you wanna call it, and we’re getting real expert take from our amazing experts here at Mod Op on what matters and what doesn’t as far as getting you visibility in generative engines.

[00:00:55] Patty Parobek: To help guide our conversation, we’re doing a very fun comparison against the periodic table of SEO elements. If you’re not familiar with that, it’s exactly what it sounds like. It’s a periodic table of SEO ranking factors. It’s changed and evolved over time. Started in 2011 by a collection of SEO experts, including Danny Sullivan, uh, refined every year.

[00:01:19] Patty Parobek: And what we realized here at Mod Op was, number one, we love that tool as a teaching tool for SEO. Uh, something that grounded and centered us set it expectations for our clients, but also when we talk about generative engine optimization, that is what a lot of our clients have been talking about. And, uh, helping them compare against those elements has been really helpful.

[00:01:46] Patty Parobek: So today. We’re giving you our take on the periodic table of GEO elements by going through the key factors of SEO and comparing it. Does this matter for GEO, is it less important? Is it more important? And what do we need to consider in this new era of visibility? So let’s dive in. So to start, I there there’s of course, a lot of listeners who might not be very familiar.

[00:02:15] Patty Parobek: With the periodic table of SEO elements. So, uh, Gareth, Maurice, can you guys give us a little color on what it is and what it means to you in the overall search experience?

[00:02:27] Gareth Cunningham: Sure I can go first. Uh, thanks for having me Patty. Um, it’s always great to get a bit of time and kind of, uh, talk about, this is a little bit nostalgia too ’cause I remember whenever it first came out, um, maybe I show my, my age that there, um.

[00:02:46] Gareth Cunningham: I think that the periodic table was a, a, a masterpiece to help an industry understand the direction of which it was moving and what was required. Um, I remember whenever it first started to float around, it was, it was kinda understand what the elements that was was required to, that. You had someone smart to say to a client, that’s basically what it was used.

[00:03:06] Gareth Cunningham: It was a little bit more of an understanding. ’cause SEO is not an easy. And not an easy discipline to understand if you’re from a different world. So it really helped, um, kinda our clients understand what was required, kind of the level of input that was needed. And, you know, from that there, um. We’ve now went from what almost seems like, uh, an analog version of things across to a digital version, which I know Maurice has been doing a lot of work on kind of the periodic table for, for GEO.

[00:03:39] Gareth Cunningham: But, um, you know, it evolved out of a place where it was really a, a, a very welcome tool and, and shed a lot of light, a lot of very valuable light. Uh, and, and not only just the, the practitioner’s world, but also to the client as well, to, to really let em see exactly what was involved in it. So, um, yeah, it’s, uh, it’s evolving as it always had this, it’s never stood, it’s never stood still.

[00:04:03] Gareth Cunningham: Every update, every core update, every whisper or rumor caused it to update. So, um, yeah.

[00:04:13] Patty Parobek: I love that you call it. Uh, an SEO’s, north star. Maurice, is that the way that you felt about it too? Growing up through SEO.

[00:04:21] Maurice White: Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, back with the, you know, um, older versions of the periodic table, it also included, uh, factors for negative SEO or things that you don’t want to have happen or you don’t want to have on your site. So for me, I thought that was really important to know what not to do, you know what I mean? What not to do too much of, you know, and being able to understand. You know, an idea of the ranking factors to then be able to apply that to any optimization strategies.

[00:04:55] Patty Parobek: I love that. Yeah. I remember the very, very, very old days of SEO putting white text on a white background to try to stuff keywords in. And that being an appearance in the periodic table for negative SEO for keyword stuffing. I love that. So in the most updated version of the periodic table of SEO elements, we have maybe five or 10 different elements across five or six different categories, and those categories are credibility, content, user experience, code, architecture, links, and performance. Now. I, we will go through this because I don’t know, do all of these matter to generative engine optimization? Do only some of them matter, but I think it might be fun to start with maybe the most accessible category, and that’s content.

[00:05:53] Patty Parobek: So in this bucket we have things like. Using natural language, uh, the quality of the content, relevance of the content, freshness and uniqueness of the content. Obviously the actual keywords that you use, uh, value and accuracy. I’m dying to know from you guys when you have been studying this space of generative engine optimization in SEO.

[00:06:18] Patty Parobek: Is it just as important, are there things in this table that are more important now for generative engine optimization? What’s your take?

[00:06:29] Gareth Cunningham: I can give a very quick one on that and pass it to you, Maurice. I think that the, that there’s an even more of an importance on content now. Um, I think that all of the stuff that you just laid out there, Patty, is important. But one of the key things that we see is, is that. If it’s not structured in the correct format, that that either search engines or LLMs can understand and kind of, it’s almost like Velcro, you know, if, if it’s just smooth on both sides, there’s no traction.

[00:06:58] Gareth Cunningham: Um, a a lot of content that we’re seeing that’s been produced historically is, you know, content for content sake, you know. The design is the design. The UX is the UX, and then we, we have the content and trying to get the content into, into a place where it can be. Connected correctly with search engines.

[00:07:18] Gareth Cunningham: All the historical stuff like header tags, you know, keyword waiting, you know, primary keywords, things that got out there is fine. But now we’re in a different era now, or a new era with this novel thing called l uh, uh, LLMs. And what do they want? Um, there’s a few things that we have really kinda nailed our colors to the mast on and what we know what they’re looking for.

[00:07:40] Gareth Cunningham: Um, and, and the content is going to become an even bigger part. We’ve been talking about this Maurice and myself for years. That content must. It’s no longer gonna just be a nice to have it, it must hold all of the where, what, hows, whens and whys to be able to put yourself forward in the search engine’s eyes as you currently do today, but also in LLMs that you have something to say, that you’re a part of the conversation.

[00:08:05] Gareth Cunningham: And as they look at the site as they can connect with the site with all the different elements that they give us through some of the things you just mentioned that we can get into further, that that content needs to be structured in the, in the correct way to be able to portray. That everything is laid out and it’s, it’s accessible and it’s accurate, you know?

[00:08:23] Patty Parobek: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:26] Maurice White: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think those are really great, uh, points that you made there, Gareth. Um, you know, content really is the foundation for associating relevance with your search terms. So whether that’s in the traditional search sense or when you’re searching in the LLMs, having that quality of content is there.

[00:08:49] Maurice White: So when we talk about overlapping factors between the SEO periodic table and the GEO periodic table, um, we want to, you know, visualize two tables coming together to where you have factors that are foundational for search. But then you have these additional factors for content like Gareth talked about, the structure of the on-page content, the quality of the content, including relevant data points, citations for that particular content.

[00:09:18] Maurice White: Another increasingly important factor is the author’s credibility, right? Because then we started, you know, getting into credibility. But the author credibility, having a profile for that author, have that author with other articles that are relevant in this particular topic. Like there are just other things to, you know, build on once you have those foundational SEO elements in place. Right.

[00:09:44] Gareth Cunningham: The author part you’re, that Maurice is referring to, there is something that in, just as a, a snippet of info, in 2005, Google filed an, uh, a patent for a thing called Author Rank, which was designed to replace page rank. If anybody who’s back in the olden days would know that and if the, the, a number of times I’ve, I’ve seen it online there recently, is are you utilizing this patent in your core updates and they’ve refused to answer it.

[00:10:13] Gareth Cunningham: But as Maurice just mentioned there, the credibility of the author and the connection points, that’s, that, that they have to, in, in, in many ways, real world settings and digital settings is starting to become a lot more of a, a, a finger on the balancing scale for want of a better term.

[00:10:32] Gareth Cunningham: So authors are, you know, you, you need to be pristine. What you’re saying needs to be factual. Accurate you need to be and, and that, and that will be verified through your connections, through your author trust and, and kinda the connections that you have a very, very important point to bring up.

[00:10:50] Maurice White: Yep. Absolutely.

[00:10:51] Patty Parobek: Love all that. That is so key. Uh, and I hadn’t thought about that, the importance of an author having already established credibility for that topic, for that content, for maybe that semantic network of keywords and tokens. So let’s move in then to credibility. So in the, in the periodic table of SEO elements, credibility for SEO was characterized by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 elements here in the 2024 version of the table.

[00:11:26] Patty Parobek: Authoritativeness. Brand, uh, being a creator, your expertise, experience, and trustworthiness, and I, I’m interested in your take, how is it different establishing credibility in SEO versus establishing credibility in, in the new generative visibility? Are there different methods that you should be using?

[00:11:54] Maurice White: Yeah. You know, I can, I can touch on this a bit, Gareth, and then you can bring us home.

[00:11:59] Maurice White: I mean, expertise and credibility in the generative uh, space is really important. How you go about establishing that is quite different than traditional SEO because in traditional SEO, like we were just talking about, having a author profile, having back links from trusted sources. Being referenced on those high authoritative sites linking back to your site, that’s how you were able to establish credibility for the most part, right?

[00:12:29] Maurice White: Moving into the generative space, your credibility is more about your brand awareness in the ether, in the internet space. You know what other sites are mentioning your product or services or your brand, but not necessarily linking back to your site. So increasing your brand mentions is definitely important, you know what I mean?

[00:12:51] Maurice White: And also being an expert in the services and the products that you’re talking about. So, um, it’s definitely different, uh, areas. You know, you also want to be factual, which your brand mentions and your name out there. You also wanna take a look at other mediums of marketing, right? It’s not just SEO, now you’re leaning into PR you’re leaning into your social media.

[00:13:18] Maurice White: You’re getting out there on the Reddits of the world. You have your YouTube video in tip top shape where you’re communicating helpful content and useful information that can be easily consumed. So it is not so much more about linking back to your website, it’s more about associating your brand as the authority in this space throughout the internet in different marketing points.

[00:13:42] Maurice White: Uh, Gareth, what is your take on that?

[00:13:45] Gareth Cunningham: Not a lot to add on that there. I think if you look through the lens of Apple or Microsoft, you have a pretty good blueprint to look at for excellence. Uh, kind of the, the kinda there every touch point that they have that makes them who they are. There is a, a, a spurt of excellence and, and kind of crossing the T’s and dotting the I’s.

[00:14:07] Gareth Cunningham: Um, and they encompass all of the things that Maurice just walked through. There we’re not all Microsoft or Apple, but you know, I think they, that they set a, a pretty high bar for kinda what the, what excellence looks like, and that’s something that, that that Mod Op aims for every day.

[00:14:24] Maurice White: Yeah, you can think of it more as like a digital word of mouth, right?

[00:14:28] Maurice White: Because, you know, if someone comes and make a, a, a referral to you, like Patty tells me, Hey Maurice, this guy has the best barbecue sauce, for example, and I’m gonna go my house because I know Patty likes barbecue. Right? So it’s a digital word of mouth that you’re gaining that credibility and building that authority in your particular space.

[00:14:50] Patty Parobek: I love that. That’s so helpful, and it sounds like as you guys are talking through credibility and what it means now versus what it meant in traditional SEO, it makes me think that, uh, cross channel, cross funnel. Comprehensive marketing strategy is, is definitely going to be more important now because it starts to bleed into things like public relations or overarching brand strategy, like making sure that you have, uh, authoritative uniformity across all the pockets.

[00:15:26] Patty Parobek: Right. That, or at least that’s what it sounds like to me. Is that apt?

[00:15:31] Gareth Cunningham: I would say that’s a, a pretty balanced way of looking at it. It, it no longer, no longer can it be a, a, a nice to have or a, or an add-on the search engines and the LLMs. The search engines obviously are pushing into LLMs, but the standalone ones is there.

[00:15:48] Gareth Cunningham: They are making the demand and the bar is high. And it will require these cross, cross pollination between these different disciplines to be able to, to give those LLMs what they’re looking for. So as Maurice mentioned there, PR, PR was a part of SEO traditionally for years and years. And then obviously webmaster guidelines updated, so it kind of became less of a, a more effective strategy to use.

[00:16:13] Gareth Cunningham: But now there’s a lot of things that we’re seeing that were, that were maybe not so as effective in the latter part of SEO that are now LLMs are saying that these are very effective and they’re, and, and they’re kind of in their, if you wanna call it their core algorithms that they’re putting together, which, you know, we can maybe get into some of what we think that looks like from, from the GEO uh, periodic table.

[00:16:41] Patty Parobek: Love it. So we talked about content, we talked about credibility. Uh, we even touched on links. There’s a huge section of architecture and code inside of traditional SEO periodic table of elements. How does that play into the generative engine optimization game?

[00:17:02] Maurice White: Probably the most important factor outside of content.

[00:17:05] Maurice White: I mean, content is associated, the user intent, you know, with your, your brand, product or service. Um, but having that technical foundation from traditional SEO. And then build upon that with your, uh, generative optimization techniques, right? Like information architecture is very important, but then it’s hard to take a look at the generative side of it, making sure your schema markup is there so that the bots can easily identify and understand what’s going on on your website, making sure that the heading hierarchy is correct so that the way the bots can understand the importance and understanding of the heading hierarchy.

[00:17:47] Maurice White: So there’s different. Things that are going on that, um, impact the technical portion.

[00:17:55] Gareth Cunningham: A key thing to take away there, what Maurice just said was, is that you, you, the GEO work only will work on top of good SEO. The, the foundational elements of it needs to be there in order for it. It kinda actually is a springboard for, for that there to, to really become its own.

[00:18:16] Gareth Cunningham: So. Um, and that’s why we put, at Mod Op, we push for just kinda three pillars that we, that we always come to any kind of engagement with that we, you know, we wanna leave our clients with, which is a search engine friendly website. The code we’re touching on that now. The information architecture, the code base needs to be clean.

[00:18:37] Gareth Cunningham: That needs to be well, well designed and put together so that everything you’ve got to say. Then in the second pillar, which is the content. Which holds relevant search intent. It’s well optimized, it’s balanced. It’s positioned on the website in the correct place first and foremost. The, the, that there has a chance then of starting to be able to penetrate into, into the SERPs.

[00:18:58] Gareth Cunningham: And then the third part then is the authority. Having that underlying authority through traditional backlinks and uh, uh, uh, authority that comes through other mediums. Um, to kinda say to the search engine that you’re the most, you know, trusted source for this specific query or, or, or phrase. We wanna make sure that, that there is them foundational elements are in place.

[00:19:20] Gareth Cunningham: Before we can, before we would ideally lead the clients into, obviously the clients is are, they’re asking for information, but we can’t, it’s almost like you can’t put a turbocharge on a car that has no wheels. It won’t go any faster. It won’t go anywhere. So the fundamentals is one of the things that we look at at any engagement.

[00:19:39] Gareth Cunningham: Because it’s just good house cleaning and it’s best practice. And that’s exactly where we’re seeing results. We’re seeing really good results. Whenever a site, the foundational elements has got the tick mark beside it, uh, everything else then starts to really. Really perform well.

[00:19:55] Maurice White: I mean, that’s very well said, Gareth.

[00:19:56] Maurice White: I mean, it’s, um, it’s, it is like having one hand tied behind your back trying to do the same amount of work, right? Without having the technical, foundational aspects implemented on your website. Anything you do with content optimization really isn’t going to gain the maximum amount of visibility that it could, because.

[00:20:16] Maurice White: On the technical side, it’s too confusing for the search bot to understand and associate intent, understand and associate relevancy, the performance of your website, making sure that you have a website that loads quickly, that the user experience is organized in the way that elements are quickly delivered to the user, and they’re able to navigate through your website fast, right?

[00:20:39] Maurice White: So those are things that. Will need to be in place in order for any type of GEO or even on page SEO optimization to have a, a, a greater impact. Right. It might move the needle a little bit, but you know, in search we’re in the business of generating revenue so. Getting the, the clicks and the views and the traffic is great, but the quality of that, the quality of that traffic is what’s important.

[00:21:06] Maurice White: And not having the foundational elements set up, you’re, you’re having one hand tied behind your back trying to win the race. Right.

[00:21:15] Patty Parobek: I love that analogy. I think that’s perfect. And I completely agree. It’s, it’s a hard thing to get right and that’s why you need the expertise. That you do to help you structure, how should the layout of this information architecture flow in order to get the most value through?

[00:21:33] Patty Parobek: So user experience the most value through the site. Um, so in architecture and code, it’s things like schema and making sure that you have a secure website. It’s mobile first and mobile friendly page structure, taxonomy, the URLs. Themselves, uh, the crawlability of the site overall. But then Maurice and Gareth, you guys also touched on things like performance, like speed and stickiness, responsiveness, and ultimately they all took up to the user experience.

[00:22:01] Patty Parobek: If, if a user coming in is going to have a great experience and be satisfied, uh, and have their expectations met for how quick and, and easy and frictionless the experience is, the more credit you’ll get in SEO and then. It sounds like absolutely. The more credit you’ll get in generative engine optimization,

[00:22:21] Maurice White: You know, you know, Patty, I, I mean, if I could add one more element here to the SEO periodic table, it would be the redirect strategy as part of the code and architecture, because that’s one step that if isn’t done right through a site migration, can greatly impact your search visibility and hinder the user experience.

[00:22:41] Maurice White: So, I think that’s important to, to have there as well.

[00:22:46] Patty Parobek: It’s so interesting that you bring that up, Maurice, because I was thinking how many times right now in the state of generative engine optimization are four oh fours thrown up? Because generative engines don’t always get the URL. Correct. So that’s one of the ways that you can, one, keep an eye on what is generative engine.

[00:23:07] Patty Parobek: Calling me out for my brand or my entity, uh, and understanding like what pages were they trying to get to. But another thing to look at is, uh, where are your erroring out in your website in general? Should those be redirected to where they intend to go? Um, but yeah, I, I totally agree. A redirect strategy can make or break a migration or a user experience for sure.

[00:23:32] Patty Parobek: Alright guys, we’re almost outta time. This has been so helpful and valuable for me and I know for the audience as well. Uh, we talked a lot today across a lot of different factors of SEO leading into GEO. Is there a final takeaway from both of you that are audience of marketers listening now? Uh, should take away

[00:23:55] Gareth Cunningham: You wanna go first, Maurice?

[00:23:57] Maurice White: Yeah. Um. I would say take your time, you know, uh. Don’t try to rush and do everything there. If your site is in bad shape, there’s a lot that you might need to do and it can add up fairly quickly. You know, focus on the things, uh, that might have the greatest impact, like getting your site structurally sound, making sure that your on-page content aligns in this helpful.

[00:24:23] Maurice White: With your product and services, right? You know, it’s no more, uh, no longer about trying to optimize for particular keywords. It’s more about providing helpful content that’s easy to understand and allows the user to move on in the next phase of your conversion process or your conversion funnel. So take your time.

[00:24:42] Maurice White: Don’t, don’t feel overwhelmed, you know? Uh, what about you, Gareth?

[00:24:46] Gareth Cunningham: No, I think that, building on what Maurice has said there, I think that the, um, it’s, it’s opened up a lot of opportunity for, to do things in a new way, in a smarter way. And I think that with a good partner. To be able to navigate through these different shifts and the changes for, to, to kinda lay in front of your brand or your business a way that’s tried and tested that will actually work without kind of pushing, you know, and oftentimes budgets are set, so they are that they’re, you know, they’re set.

[00:25:16] Gareth Cunningham: So they are, but it’s to come alongside and say, okay, we understand this. We know what to do. There’s a few things in here that need to be done. But lay it out in a way that’s, that’s understandable, just like the periodic table, um, to kinda, you know, everybody’s in this here to learn. It’s all about an education, um, to understand what needs to happen, when it needs to happen, and what the expected outcome from this kinda shift from a traditional search engine standpoint through to almost a, a truly semantic web where.

[00:25:50] Gareth Cunningham: There’s, there’s finer details and nuances that AI can only think of. ’cause they’re obviously smarter than us, uh, because, uh, um, everybody’s paying for AI as they’re now. Um, but just to really lean into that kind of, of, of brain power that has given us, uh, and making available to us. I think that’s kind of the, the, the takeaway that I would have.

[00:26:11] Gareth Cunningham: It’s, it’s, it’s a lot to do, but it’s, it’s getting a lot easier.

[00:26:17] Maurice White: Yeah, I mean it just to, to say there too, Gareth like, you know, search is a, is a marathon, it’s not a sprint, right? But when you add in other factors like paid media, PR, branding, while you build up your SEO/GEO baseline to where you can be able to take advantage of optimizations.

[00:26:38] Maurice White: It, it should be looked at like that, like phase in the different elements that you’re trying to do versus trying to do everything all to win the a hundred meter dash all at once. You know, we are, we’re trying to run the marathon across the globe. That takes endurance. That takes time. Right. So just knowing that it’s not a sprint, it’s more of a marathon.

[00:27:01] Gareth Cunningham: It’s also, sorry. It’s also an inevitable as well. I think that’s the key thing as well, that. Over, over and above just the actual doing the work. And maybe the, kinda the, the key part for educating ourselves and our clients is, is that this is a, this is a train that’s not gonna stop. Um, it’s gonna be inevitable that things will need to change in the, in your perception potentially, of what your, your go to market strategies will be in the future.

[00:27:31] Gareth Cunningham: Um, it’s just to, you know, as Maurice says, go slow. It’s not, don’t be overwhelmed with it. It’s, we’re all in this together.

[00:27:41] Maurice White: And that that search train once set up properly, continues to pay dividends well far into the future. So it’s just, again, remembering it’s, it’s that long term result we’re looking for.

[00:27:53] Maurice White: And in the meantime, other marketing mediums can get you that short term goals, get you to those short term goals. But yeah, that’s a, that’s a great,

[00:28:03] Patty Parobek: I. I agree, uh, with everything that you guys are saying. I really like the thought of being intentional. You both definitely hinted around making sure that we’re prioritizing because there is a lot to do.

[00:28:19] Patty Parobek: And if you need, and you, you likely will a dedicated partner to help you prioritize what is gonna make the most impact with what you’re working with in this marathon, where can they reach out to you guys?

[00:28:34] Gareth Cunningham: Sure. [email protected]. Um, feel free to to email me. Call, uh, call the office. Happy to talk to anybody about this.

[00:28:46] Gareth Cunningham: Here’s an area of great interest to us. Maurice?

[00:28:51] Maurice White: Yep. Don’t email. No, I’m just joking.

[00:28:56] Gareth Cunningham: Talk to Patty.

[00:28:57] Maurice White: [email protected]. But yeah, we always happy to talk. SEO Um, we can talk for hours about it and we can also make it happen. So that’s what it’s all about.

[00:29:09] Patty Parobek: Awesome. And both are also available on LinkedIn.

[00:29:12] Patty Parobek: You can look up their profiles, reach out to Mod Op. Thank you both for your time. If you wanna listen to more episodes of Leader Generation, you can find us at Mod Op, that’s www.modop.com. Or of course, your favorite podcast platform of choice. We’re there as well. Thanks again for your time, Maurice and Gareth, until next time.

[00:29:37] Maurice White: You’re welcome. Anytime, Patty.

[00:29:38] Gareth Cunningham: Thanks for having us.