Leading Change That Sticks: People, Processes & Platforms

[00:00:00] Tessa Burg: Alright. Welcome to another episode of Leader Generation, brought to you by Mod Op. I’m your host, Tessa Burg, and today I am joined by Stuart Goldstein. He recently joined Mod Op as our new COO and we are so excited to jump into the why behind that move and hire. And as you may have heard, Mod Op recently landed on the Inc 5,000 list.

[00:00:25] Tessa Burg: We are number 976, and it’s such a milestone for us as a company to break into the top 1000. And Stewart is coming to us at the perfect time where we are, like many of you going through transformational change, growing rapidly and needing to navigate an ever-changing and really complicated technology, systems and most complicated people environment.

[00:00:50] Tessa Burg: Stewart, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:00:52] Stuart Goldstein: Thanks for having me. Tessa.

[00:00:55] Tessa Burg: So new COO. Lots of big, high expectations. We always say internally we’re looking to grow faster, better, smarter, but the way that we’ve grown has been through acquisition.

[00:01:10] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:10] Tessa Burg: So pulling in. Agencies who were, I mean, we are still an independent company, but it’s a little bit different when we’re, you know, looking to go. Right now we’re almost to 500 employees.

[00:01:22] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:01:22] Tessa Burg: We’re gonna continue to grow. But for you, this isn’t new. This is, you know, you’ve been there, done that. You’ve worked at large scaling, rapidly growing agencies in the past.

[00:01:33] Tessa Burg: So before we jump into transformational change in leadership, tell us a little bit about yourself and your background.

[00:01:40] Stuart Goldstein: Sure, sure. So I’ve spent my career helping agencies and professional services firms scale. Um, the through line has always been about bringing structure and clarity to creative, fast moving, uh, agencies, environments. And along that way, you know, I’ve led teams through mergers and digital transformations and process overhauls and, and client growth across advertising and tech.

[00:02:07] Stuart Goldstein: That’s been the theme. Um, when Mod Op came up, it really checked every box for me. Um, it’s growth minded. It’s PE-backed, it’s entrepreneurial. Um, with a very ambitious leadership team, Tessa, uh, that was ready for real change and, and not just talk. Um, and so my role as COO is really connecting the dots across our strategic business units.

[00:02:31] Stuart Goldstein: Um, and that’s aligning people and process and platforms and making sure we’re scaling in all the right ways. Um, that’s sustainable, right? And end of the day it’s about happy people. And, um, which, which usually means happy clients. And those really go hand in hand.

[00:02:51] Tessa Burg: We really do. We were talking before we started recording. That when there’s a strong agency client relationship, when you can see the client for who they are and the expertise and the leadership that they bring to the table and their business and, you know, overall to their customers and clients that their businesses serve. It is such a unique combination. And it, it leads to longer relationships.

[00:03:16] Tessa Burg: And our vision at Mod Op is to really redefine the way agencies deliver values to clients. And one of the ways that we’re doing that, that feels different is we want everyone to work in these shared processes and shared platforms. It’s really hard and everyone’s coming from like their own way of doing things.

[00:03:39] Tessa Burg: Uh. We’re seeing this in our client environments too, as they try and consolidate down departments, consolidate down tech, figure out where does AI fit in, what are some tools or what are some approaches that you’ve used in the past that have helped people with very different backgrounds and very different ideas around how process should work, come together into those shared spaces and shared processes.

[00:04:01] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah. I think when it comes to navigating that change and all the shared, yeah. Platforms and processes, ways of working. The tech, uh, or the process piece is usually the easy part. Uh, the real work is the people. Um, because I think change creates, can create real uncertainty, and uncertainty creates resistance.

[00:04:21] Stuart Goldstein: So if you don’t address that head on, even with the, the best systems, uh, they’ll, they’ll stall, right? So, uh, what it really comes down to is over communicating and listening as much as you talk, and giving people the why behind the change. Uh, not just the what. So, you know, you also, I find need to meet people where they are.

[00:04:42] Stuart Goldstein: Sometimes. Um, some will be, and, and you probably know this from rolling out all the AI activities, some will be eager adopters, others will be cautious. And, and I think both matter. So I found the most successful transformations happen when you, uh, make people feel like participants and not passengers. You know, if they see their fingerprints on the change, they’ll own it.

[00:05:06] Stuart Goldstein: And when people own the change, um, you know, I think that’s, that’s when it sticks.

[00:05:16] Tessa Burg: I really love that answer, and I feel like there were three really rich layers that I would love. To dive into, and I’m just gonna caveat that this question might be putting you on the spot, but I’m really curious when we think about the change that Mod Op is going through, acquiring niche agencies, niche expertise, bringing them all together so that our clients have this single door of access, how would you describe the why behind our change and the why are we going on that journey and why are we pursuing that positioning?

[00:05:51] Stuart Goldstein: To, to create, um, competitive differentiation. I think first and foremost, right? Um, we do wanna be different, right? We wanna offer clients something different. We wanna offer our people something different. Uh, whether it’s career pathing, right, innovation, um, thinking about their role in the agency differently, right?

[00:06:13] Stuart Goldstein: And how they can add value. Um, for me it starts there, right? Um, and then for clients, I think it’s really looking at how we can help them achieve their goals, right? And really understanding, um, their pain points, um, and mapping that to kind of our service offering to our capabilities and what we wanna offer as an agency, right?

[00:06:35] Stuart Goldstein: Um, so listening to people, but also listening to our clients in the right ways.

[00:06:41] Tessa Burg: Yeah, and I think that’s such an important point, and I feel like is the epitome of our monarch culture is the listening to clients like we have seen clients struggle with having to manage and coordinate and become almost like the mediator, scheduler, combiner of deliverables from all these different agencies.

[00:07:02] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:07:02] Tessa Burg: Where. There is an opportunity to show up a little bit differently, to have things still. I mean, when I was on the client side, I had three different agencies for one of our brands.

[00:07:14] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:16] Tessa Burg: And the thought then was I wanted to have the best and the brightest within each of those lanes, which within media versus web development versus creative.

[00:07:29] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:29] Tessa Burg: And it did create. Overhead at the same time. Yeah. I had all different meetings. I almost felt like I got caught in a waterfall thing. Like sometimes we were really waiting on creative.

[00:07:44] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:44] Tessa Burg: And then I have to pause the web team and where we’re looking to do that. Something different, that big.

[00:07:52] Tessa Burg: Why is can we bring that same level of expertise, deep expertise within those disciplines. But make the client’s life easier.

[00:08:03] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:08:03] Tessa Burg: And take down the amount of time they’re doing coordinating and administrating across. And we were chatting about like the podcast, the history of the podcast. We have a lot of really great strategic thinking clients.

[00:08:16] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:08:16] Tessa Burg: When every time we interview one of them.

[00:08:18] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:08:18] Tessa Burg: You know, and like blown away by their, you know, authentic passion for. Their jobs for what they’re delivering to their, to their customers. And so you talked about, you know, being a participant in this change and while we’re all unified under listening to clients and serving clients, sometimes the word different or doing something different ends up being a lot stinking harder

[00:08:42] Stuart Goldstein: mm-hmm.

[00:08:43] Tessa Burg: Than you anticipate. So what are some things that you have found, especially with different personality types? How creatives see, accept and process change I have found is really different than how the tech team sees accept and processes change. And so how do they all with different perceptions, with different sort of approaches to change, become a participant in defining and driving, uh, the overall vision.

[00:09:20] Stuart Goldstein: I mean, yeah, some people lean in right away and others hang back until they see proof that it works. Um, and I think I said, you know, the key is to meet people where they are initially, um, and give early adopters room to experiment and share wins. Right. And we’ve done some of that on the AI front. Right.

[00:09:40] Stuart Goldstein: Um, and I think you have to give the skeptics space to ask questions and voice concerns. Um, if you listen to kind of both groups and keep communicating the why, you can bring the whole team along. Ultimately, I find, yeah,

[00:09:56] Tessa Burg: I, I have seen other change initiatives when you don’t

[00:09:59] Stuart Goldstein: mm-hmm.

[00:09:59] Tessa Burg: Listen to skeptics or if you

[00:10:01] Stuart Goldstein: mm-hmm.

[00:10:02] Tessa Burg: Uh. On validate. Just validate, I dunno what the word is, their feelings. Like say, I feel this way, or I, I think give voice. Yeah. Yeah. Then you lo you lose them.

[00:10:12] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:13] Tessa Burg: It could have been the balance or the perspective you needed. Uh, and just by ignoring it or saying that you shouldn’t feel that way, you shouldn’t think that way.

[00:10:24] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:25] Tessa Burg: You’ve really lost the value and giving them that space and yeah, they’re to contribute. So you’ve said it a couple of times. You know, AI is definitely a big part of what is evolving and changing the way marketing is done.

[00:10:44] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:44] Tessa Burg: We’re navigating it, our clients are navigating it. What advice would you give CMOs and marketing leaders who are also trying to deal with this rapid technological ad advancement?

[00:10:58] Stuart Goldstein: Sure. I guess a couple of things come to mind, like, and we’ve talked about this before, AI for us isn’t just a tool. Um, it’s something we’re building into the core of how we work. Um, and I really respect how we’ve rolled it out. Um, but that means making it accessible to everyone and not just tech folks.

[00:11:16] Stuart Goldstein: Um, and we put a lot into, um, adoption and governance so teams can use it. Responsibly, we talked about fair, we’ve talked about fair use, um, offline cre, creatively and, and at scale. Um, and at the same time, I think we’re, we’re thinking about long-term talent, right? Long-term about talent. Uh, and that’s entry level programs to grow the next generation quickly and making sure our rising stars have opportunities to lead.

[00:11:44] Stuart Goldstein: Um, tools change, you know, markets shift, but people are not what really. Um, uh, people are really what set agencies apart, right? Um, so that’s, that’s one part of it. And I think adv advice for CMOs is what you asked in terms of navigating, uh, that change. Um, I mean, for me it’s, I guess my advice would be first lead with clarity and not panic, right?

[00:12:11] Stuart Goldstein: Because you can feel like you’re behind. Um, if, if tech change feels overwhelming to you as a CMO. Uh, it’ll feel overwhelming to your team. So I would frame AI and data, um, as opportunities, not threats. Right. Um, second is, uh, probably guardrails, you know, set them early. Um, otherwise you end up with smart people running experiments in silos and you miss out on all the shared learnings, right?

[00:12:42] Stuart Goldstein: Um, and probably the last one, I would, from an advice perspective, don’t lose sight of the human side. I always go back to this. Um, creativity and culture are what keep people, uh, engaged. So make sure that new tools amplify that and not replace it.

[00:13:01] Tessa Burg: Yeah. I like when you were giving the perspective from the agency side and the marketing client side, it is all about the people and the value.

[00:13:10] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:10] Tessa Burg: That bring in your past experience and integrating agencies and working with clients. Has there ever been another technological advancement where folks felt like it was gonna disintermediate their careers? Or impact, you know, the way they hire and develop talent?

[00:13:32] Stuart Goldstein: That’s a great question. Um, I multiple come to mind immediately.

[00:13:36] Stuart Goldstein: Uh, um, uh, because I’ve, I’ve kind of lived and worked through all the waves. The Web 1.0, web 2.0. Um, I think when, um, early web development, like, like the wizzywig, you know, like the, what you see is what you get. Platforms came out for web, web design, development that scared people. Um, you know, some of the tooling around social media, um, you know, and content generation, um, I think got, got people nervous.

[00:14:06] Stuart Goldstein: Um, you know, so I think, you know, we kind of lived through all those different waves. I think AI is that next wave, you know, and so, yeah, I don’t, it’s, it’s, it’s slightly no different than that. But also it’s, it, it change. I feel like it changes everything, you know? So I think we’re learning in real time. Um, what that impact will be to tooling and people and ways of working.

[00:14:29] Tessa Burg: Yeah. I know Forrester reported that there’s 186% more change happening now than ever before. Yeah. So I agree. I feel like it is really similar. I remember being on both sides, like the person who was benefiting from other people being freaked out like. It’s the advent of social media, just because at the time I was, or I still am a millennial, but I was like a young millennial.

[00:14:58] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:58] Tessa Burg: Well, of course she should run social media because, uh, she’s young.

[00:15:03] Stuart Goldstein: Of course.

[00:15:03] Tessa Burg: And she used Facebook in college, so she’s a, at that, at that specific thing. All other things millennials would dumb and entitled, but it’s social media. We were-

[00:15:12] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:15:13] Tessa Burg: Apparently rock stars. Um, I had not used Facebook until that time.

[00:15:18] Tessa Burg: I just didn’t say anything. And then on the other side, I just got called like too old for the first time ever and I just thought that was hilarious.

[00:15:29] Stuart Goldstein: That’s not fair.

[00:15:30] Tessa Burg: Yeah. Somebody was explaining to me why I was having trouble understanding, uh, why someone would want or not want things recorded on an app because a lot of AI, I mean before, even before the AI event, our devices are listening to us like every

[00:15:48] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:15:49] Tessa Burg: Everything is being recorded, and it does become concerning when wearables are going to start combining what they hear with other data, features with your body, responses with where you’re going. We were physically at and. Someone much younger than me was like, well it is for, you know, the older generation that is gonna be a little bit scary.

[00:16:17] Tessa Burg: And they’re like, that’s because like older people like you are just like used to more, you know, divisions. I’m like, what? I’m like, that should be scary for everybody.

[00:16:26] Stuart Goldstein: Exactly.

[00:16:27] Tessa Burg: Just because I’m ancient. But it was just funny thinking about how. That person was really leaning into that advancement and the what’s possible when you take biometrics and other signals.

[00:16:42] Stuart Goldstein: Sure.

[00:16:42] Tessa Burg: Combined with audio and I, I had just never been the person on the other side who was like the resistor. I was like, oh crap. Uh, but again, kind of evidencing there really is benefit to both. Yeah. Like when people resist, it’s sometimes I still find it hard too. Not just focus on the resistant and really dig into the why.

[00:17:05] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:17:05] Tessa Burg: Because the why they’re resistant is where the value’s at and is where you can unlock and have a productive conversation. Um, but it’s so hard and I can’t believe you’ve done it for so long. I mean, don’t you just sometimes feel like-

[00:17:20] Stuart Goldstein: It’s different. Yeah, it’s same but different, you know, you know, but I think with the resistance, like it’s, you, you have to create the environment for people, uh, to want to share.

[00:17:28] Stuart Goldstein: Right. And be really open about it. Right. If you don’t create that environment, they’ll just, they’ll, they’ll crawl into the back, into their world, you know, and not share. So you can’t really think about how they’re thinking about your, your change initiative. So.

[00:17:43] Tessa Burg: Yeah. And I, I feel like that’s a little easier said than done. Some companies-

[00:17:48] Stuart Goldstein: it is.

[00:17:48] Tessa Burg: Intentionally punish.

[00:17:50] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:51] Tessa Burg: Like, they might not select. People who are resistant or not initial hand raisers to be a part of those initiatives. And it’s something like leaders really gotta look out for, like, are you truly including

[00:18:04] Stuart Goldstein: mm-hmm.

[00:18:04] Tessa Burg: You know, diverse voices in the room even when it’s hard.

[00:18:08] Stuart Goldstein: Sure.

[00:18:09] Tessa Burg: Even hard to have someone who is constantly asking questions.

[00:18:15] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:18:15] Tessa Burg: Um, so. When we think about that, like making sure we have those voices in the room, that’s one example of what doesn’t work. What are some other examples when you’re navigating technological change that don’t work like you’ve seen and you’ve been a part of many different models.

[00:18:39] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:40] Tessa Burg: And so maybe things that worked in the past maybe don’t work, uh, now and maybe some things that weren’t working are now.

[00:18:47] Tessa Burg: The, the better path. Tell me a little bit about what you’ve seen in terms of this works for facilitating change and this doesn’t work for facilitating change as we continue this journey into. The 186% more levels of anxiety going on.

[00:19:04] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah. And I can speak kind of at a high, maybe, maybe a higher level initially.

[00:19:08] Stuart Goldstein: Um, but I think there’s, there’s a shiny object trap and that’s, that can, that can be really real, you know, whether it’s tools or platforms or whatever it may be. Um, and I think rolling. I’ll say tools, um, without a plan or, or measurable outcome, um, that just burns resources and burns people. Um, so I, I always like to start with that.

[00:19:31] Stuart Goldstein: Um, you know, I think underestimating change management, um, you know, I go back to, I don’t wanna say launching tech is easy, but it, it’s changing habits and mindsets is, is the hard part. And if you’re not thinking about training, um, and communication, then you’re gonna get that adoption lag in a big way. Um, and then I think, you know, maybe we learned a little bit about this, you know, in terms of rolling out, um, all these AI initiatives at Mod Op.

[00:19:59] Stuart Goldstein: But don’t let AI, um, or something like AI or data, or whatever it may be, sit in a single team, you know, if it’s siloed, it won’t scale. So, I know you’ve worked hard at creating champions, um, across multiple disciplines at multiple levels. Um, if it’s siloed, it, it won’t scale, so you have to bake it into every part of the business, so it becomes really part of the DNA.

[00:20:26] Tessa Burg: Yeah, you said a couple of things that have actually come up in client conversations. One, like sometimes I think it’s hard for people to realize they’re doing this. Don’t roll out tools and first make sure you have a change program in place that you started with the listening and baselining. And I know when you started, you did a listening tour and you talked.

[00:20:50] Tessa Burg: All of the leaders across the company, what were some of the things that came out of listening to the various leaders across different disciplines that informed the way you’re approaching leading change now?

[00:21:03] Stuart Goldstein: I think some of the main themes were, um, you know, how do we become a more unified company? You know, how do we become a a a one Mod Op in all the right ways?

[00:21:12] Stuart Goldstein: Right? And so, um, you know, we are. We are a remotely dispersed office, um, which is actually a great positive too. Um, ’cause it allows us to tap into talent across. The globe, essentially. Uh, mostly North America. Um, but, you know, how do we align on consistent, um, communications processes, right? Ways of working, um, but also ultimately kind of platforms, right?

[00:21:41] Stuart Goldstein: So that’s what I hear from a, from a, from a lot of folks, um, as I’m listening. Um, you know, and also how do we create connections virtually. Right. And it’s, it’s not easy to form relationships and build trust, uh, online. Um, so how do we create opportunities for our people to meet each other in a live setting, right?

[00:22:02] Stuart Goldstein: A lot of us are so used to being in these virtual environments. Um, so we’re looking at how do we create more opportunities from that perspective as well, right? Because it leads to better collaboration, um, and, uh, and I think better ideas for our clients.

[00:22:17] Tessa Burg: Yeah, I agree. And I think that one little nugget of hearing leaders who are across departments

[00:22:24] Stuart Goldstein: mm-hmm.

[00:22:24] Tessa Burg: Operating very differently. Say, Hey, we wanna be more unified, also becomes sort of the sounding board for platform and tool evaluation. I also lead it so we get requests

[00:22:38] Stuart Goldstein: mm-hmm.

[00:22:39] Tessa Burg: For tools and apps all the time. And it helps when you have. A shared vision and a shared culture and values on, hey we, we do want, really wanna work together.

[00:22:49] Tessa Burg: We do think that’s what differentiates us.

[00:22:52] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:22:52] Tessa Burg: Then say, does this tool align against that? Does this tool work within our existing stack?

[00:22:58] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm. Are we gonna be able to make it accessible to more than just you? Will it scale?

[00:23:03] Tessa Burg: And when you don’t start with listening and really, and pulling out where’s our shared points.

[00:23:11] Tessa Burg: Of interest and where, where are we able to have shared goals and values? Then it then change becomes even harder and you could really get

[00:23:20] Stuart Goldstein: mm-hmm.

[00:23:21] Tessa Burg: Dragged down into sort of the disillusionment state.

[00:23:25] Stuart Goldstein: Sure.

[00:23:26] Tessa Burg: Like, okay. I, I started with understanding why, but now I’ve been told no for what feels like weird reasons or, you know, arbitrary reasons for so long.

[00:23:34] Tessa Burg: Now I’m, I’m totally disillusioned. And so what, what types of things on the flip side, was there anything, uh, surprising? Like those, those were sort of like your golden nuggets, but were there anything you’re like, huh, coming into Mod Op, I would not have thought this.

[00:23:53] Stuart Goldstein: Well, I think I, you know, and maybe giving a little kudos to you and your team.

[00:23:57] Stuart Goldstein: Um, I mean, I did not know how mature in advance, um, the innovation piece. Um, was coming in, right? And how, and how and how much progress you had made from, from a training perspective, perspective, kind of an adoption roadmap for AI in general, uh, across discipline. So that was a, that was a very pleasant surprise.

[00:24:18] Tessa Burg: Oh, good.

[00:24:19] Stuart Goldstein: ’cause, ’cause, you know, many of the companies I was at prior, uh, had not made as much progress and did not follow some of the, kind of the checks checkbox items that you and I had discussed in terms of change management and being thoughtful around people. Right. And systems. Um, so that was, that was a, that was a very pleasant surprise that, that, uh, that, um, I really liked.

[00:24:41] Tessa Burg: Yeah. And you know, we were talking about this before we got on the line that

[00:24:44] Stuart Goldstein: mm-hmm.

[00:24:45] Tessa Burg: There nothing about leadership is a hundred percent natural. I think there are people who are more likely to have some native inclinations on how something should go. But for the most part you learned it. You were trained.

[00:25:02] Tessa Burg: You’re a person with a growth mindset who loves to take in what they just heard or experienced. You know, whether it be a class or whether it be from a mentor and say, Hey, how does this work in my environment? And that change process, I will say, came from a lot of the training that I had to do and other leaders at companies we worked at in the past.

[00:25:23] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:25:23] Tessa Burg: And what I’m really excited about at Mod op and, and going back to people feeling disintermediated, you know, a lot of companies are pausing their entry level jobs and that to me is such a shame. Like we talked about, you know, while people are the hardest part of change, people are the highest value and any company.

[00:25:46] Tessa Burg: And so to start pointing to AI as to why you would not hire an entry level position, or it’s replaced those basic skills. We’re actually going to lean into like a management management style training program. Won’t all be for management, but when we think about redefining work, we’re going to, people don’t have to come in at the same role.

[00:26:10] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:10] Tessa Burg: Roles are evolving, but we still want to have this pipeline of talent that’s coming in to do the work differently than how we in the past and to train and give them those skills. To do so, where have you seen training add value or really change and bring a company’s vision to life, um, in your past?

[00:26:35] Stuart Goldstein: Um, well, I guess, you know, well, I guess I first wanna start talking about AI for a second because it’s, it’s really, it’s really interesting what you just said. Um, you know, um, uh. You know, I, I’m thinking to myself is AI, you know, different than those past, uh, waves where we had to like upskill, right? Um, in terms of digital and social and mobile and the metaverse, right?

[00:27:01] Stuart Goldstein: All those different factors, right? We’ve seen these big waves before. Um, but for me, AI is hitting every discipline at once. Um, from creative to media, to ops, right? Um, and in the past you could phase things in, right? With AI you need a more integrated approach from day one. Um, and the skills piece is different too.

[00:27:26] Stuart Goldstein: Um, you know, before you know, new tech. Um, maybe this plays into what you were saying about, you know, rethinking about roles and those entry level folks before new tech meant hiring specialists. And now AI competency is, is an expectation across the board, right? Creatives and strategists and PMs and analysts.

[00:27:48] Stuart Goldstein: And that really shifts how you hire and how you train and ultimately how you measure, right? So, um, you know, um. You know, I think every discipline needs to think about their, their people and their path and how that parlays into their clients Right. As well. And what the clients are feeling and listening to, um, and experiencing.

[00:28:14] Stuart Goldstein: Uh, yeah.

[00:28:17] Tessa Burg: Yeah. And I think you get on something important. Yeah. It’s training has to go beyond technical training.

[00:28:22] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:23] Tessa Burg: Like when AI is looking to replace a lot of highly repeatable tasks or, or almost do the work for you. We were talking about the importance of presentation training.

[00:28:33] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:28:33] Tessa Burg: And the fact that people who are able to take in a lot of information and then distill it down into an accessible manner on the spot are highly valuable.

[00:28:44] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:44] Tessa Burg: It keeps you from. Panicking it keep, I call it like keeps you from jumping into the back of the plane. Like you said earlier, like you, you have to stay calm. You have to be the voice that’s listening. You have to take it all in. And sometimes that’s really stinking hard when it feels like everything is changing all at once everywhere.

[00:29:06] Tessa Burg: And you are just trying to keep up with putting out the fires. It’s really hard to stay the pilot. Not just jump into the back of the plane and wave your arms around you and be like, oh my God, it’s going down. You’re absolutely right. And that’s the other thing, like a lot of times feedback is rights.

[00:29:22] Tessa Burg: Things are outta control, things are moving.

[00:29:24] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:29:25] Tessa Burg: We, you know, we should, shouldn’t have to do these things. Uh, so yeah, training now I feel like. In the past it has all always been, even our onboarding plans, even when I started our onboarding plans was how to technically use certain things in front of you and the types of skills and expectations we had to measure that.

[00:29:45] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:45] Tessa Burg: Where now we’re elevated into what does it mean to be a strategist?

[00:29:52] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:29:52] Tessa Burg: What does it mean to step from manager role into director and director of what, uh, it won’t be. Just people. It will be

[00:30:02] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:30:02] Tessa Burg: Agents and processes. And I was listening to this interview with, um, oh man, I, I can’t, I feel like I’m gonna botch his name.

[00:30:11] Tessa Burg: Dennis ve he is the founder and CEO of DeepMind, which is a part of Google.

[00:30:18] Stuart Goldstein: Yep.

[00:30:19] Tessa Burg: And they were talking about like AGI, and he said one of the biggest differentiators. That really separates us as creative thinking. And you know, I think that’s something we’re, we’re trying to infuse into what we would call training is.

[00:30:39] Tessa Burg: It is not just sit back and learn, but it’s also how do we come together on challenges to creatively solve them and unlock in a different way or a different approach. But I feel like that’s very, it’s very different. Than just straight up training in the past. But I feel like it’s, it can learn from some really fun old school tools, like having hack days, you know?

[00:31:07] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah, we talked about that. Yeah. I think hack days are super valuable. I think the training in this environment has to be continuous. You know, it’s not, it’s not one and done, you know, and, and, and you just can’t roll out a new tool or a process and expect it to stick. Right. So I think I see, I think people, everyone comes with a different learning, um, approach as well.

[00:31:29] Stuart Goldstein: You know, some want videos, some want, um, you know, um, offline learning, uh, live, live learning. But I think people need bite-sized learning at this point. Um, hands-on practice. And ultimately, like you and I discussed a safe space to ask questions as things evolve. ’cause they’re certainly evolving.

[00:31:49] Tessa Burg: Yes. Yes they are.

[00:31:50] Tessa Burg: Yeah. So before, we’re almost at time, but before we get off, I wanted to know, what are you most looking forward to in the next year? Like, here’s where we are today as Mod Op. We’re coming together, we’re coming onto shared platforms. What does Mod Op look like in a year from now as we continue this journey?

[00:32:13] Stuart Goldstein: Um, I mean, I think. I, I’m, I’m personally excited to plug into this larger platform, you know, and, and, and hopefully create deeper resources for everyone here, right? Um, access to more services for our clients, um, talent, um, and, and, and tools as we’ve discussed to drive real impact. So, um, you know, I, I, I think I’m looking forward.

[00:32:37] Stuart Goldstein: To our team to be able to say yes to more clients, right? Uh, because of the breadth of our, um, capabilities, right? Um, you know, I’m, I’m energized by the challenge of integrating, um, you know, all these, these, these great practices into, into a bigger organization. Um, and helping to write that next growth chapter.

[00:32:59] Stuart Goldstein: So, um, you know, just personal contribution that, that excites me, um, excites me to be part of a, a great leadership team and, and to building, um, you know, further relationships across the company. And I’m also thrilled about working with, um, you know, our broad mix of talent here. Right? Um, and as we kind of navigate this new world of AI.

[00:33:22] Stuart Goldstein: So in how we apply data and tech and marketing automation, um, expertise in bigger, more impactful ways. ’cause ultimately it, it gives our, our, our people the chance to grow, right, as well. So you get that two, that, that, that double punch there. You know, we’re helping our people and, and, um, enhancing their careers, um, but also ultimately giving our clients real value.

[00:33:46] Stuart Goldstein: So that’s what, that’s what excites me. Yeah. I love that.

[00:33:50] Tessa Burg: I, it’s something for some reason I feel like the more I listen to parenting podcasts, it actually helps me too, is be a better manager. Yeah. But one of the things that came out of trying to support my son and not get caught up in all the anxiety that he feels around he wanting to be the be best soccer player in the world, or just wanting to be a good student at school, is you really do unlock your best self.

[00:34:17] Tessa Burg: When you are in a space where you can see and feel your value, like yeah, it’s awesome show like you’re really feeling yourself, but

[00:34:25] Stuart Goldstein: a hundred percent

[00:34:25] Tessa Burg: you’re having fun.

[00:34:27] Stuart Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:28] Tessa Burg: I think in your answer when you lean into like you want people to be happy, but it doesn’t mean that getting there isn’t also going to be a little hard.

[00:34:38] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:34:39] Tessa Burg: But isn’t that where like happiness and connection really comes from, like when you can bond with people because. You found that happiness and you found that solution together.

[00:34:50] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah, absolutely. And it may be like you, like a little painful, right?

[00:34:55] Tessa Burg: Yeah.

[00:34:55] Stuart Goldstein: But you can create an environment where there is healthy debate, healthy discourse, right.

[00:35:02] Stuart Goldstein: And you all go home at the end of the day and, and, uh, and high five and, you know, get, get right back into the next day.

[00:35:09] Tessa Burg: So yeah, I agree. I, I was working at a new company and we were navigating some change and. We went into, we were pitching my old company they came from to be a client. And when I walked in I gave everyone that I used to work with a hug.

[00:35:26] Tessa Burg: And I didn’t even realize at the time that I was not very, I dunno if affectionate is the right word, but I didn’t really make contact with anyone at my new

[00:35:34] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:35:34] Tessa Burg: Company at you leaving. And one of the engineers is like, he’s like, so what? Where do we go? Like how do you get to the hugging stage? Like, I’ve never seen you be that warm with anyone.

[00:35:47] Tessa Burg: And he is like, that was really surprising. How do you go from, hi, I see you in the morning to Oh my gosh. And hug. And I’m like, it’s getting through adversity. It’s building something. It’s doing something,

[00:36:01] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:36:01] Tessa Burg: That maybe people don’t think you can do, or other people are like, I’m not sure there’s any value in that, but.

[00:36:07] Tessa Burg: Being with a group of people who truly believes and like we do here at Mod Op, and I’m also very excited,

[00:36:12] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:36:12] Tessa Burg: That there is a different way for agencies to show up for clients in a way that delivers tremendous value, solves some of these huge challenges, and elevates the humanness in it all. Yeah. So, yeah,

[00:36:26] Stuart Goldstein: I, I, I like, I, I like the idea of more hugs.

[00:36:30] Tessa Burg: Yes, me too.

[00:36:31] Stuart Goldstein: Period. Yeah. We need to hug more. Yeah, of course. Appropriately, but yes,

[00:36:37] Tessa Burg: Yes. Yeah. No, it, it’s, there’s no better feeling when you, when you can look back and be like, man, that journey was worth it.

[00:36:43] Stuart Goldstein: Yeah. You went through battles together. Yeah. You deserve a hug, so, yeah.

[00:36:47] Tessa Burg: Well, Stuart, we’re really excited to have you here on our journey and it, we’ve already made so much progress and it’s, when I think about like what’s gonna happen in a year, I do think there’ll be a lot, a lot more hugs.

[00:37:01] Tessa Burg: And I also think it’s gonna be interesting to see how much more we can grow, like people wise, client wise, and just super excited to see like the case studies that come out of it from all the amazing work that can be fueled through data and innovation.

[00:37:17] Stuart Goldstein: Couldn’t agree more. Excited to partner with you and the leadership team and as I travel to all the different offices, uh, ’cause I was in Dallas, I just got back from Dallas.

[00:37:25] Stuart Goldstein: I’m traveling to Calgary, as you know, in Toronto. Uh, I’ve been to Philly and New York. Um, it’s just to, just to see the energy of our teams is awesome. So I’m, I’m excited.

[00:37:36] Tessa Burg: Yes. Oh it is. Well, thanks for your time and if listeners want to find you or ask you any questions directly. Where, where are you online?

[00:37:47] Stuart Goldstein: Great. I mean, the best is [email protected]. Send me a, send me a note.

[00:37:54] Tessa Burg: Perfect. Well, thanks and until next time. Uh, if listeners wanna hear more episodes of Leader Generation, you can find at modop.com. That’s modop.com or anywhere you listen to podcasts. We’re on all the channels. Thanks again.

[00:38:11] Stuart Goldstein: Thanks.